I really can't say I can see why everyone's so upset about this season. I really can't say I can generate the passion to be so angry at anything that is remotely related to our win/loss column. I really can't say I can be bothered reading some of the repeatitive junk that is written here that calls for drastic change, that is borderline anarchist revolution, written by people that aren't a grogan in the mass arsehair of Che Guevera's rear end.

We already expected this to be a "nothing" year in the way of making the 8, etc. etc.

If you couldn't realise this when Dick Pratt expected a 10th placed finish, then I suggest that you perhaps follow a more simpler sport. 10th = not winning a lot of games, and probably losing more than we won.

"But Cammo...", you so wittingly point out, "we're not going to finish 10th, we're losing too many winnable games!". Who cares? Not only do I fail to see a problem with missing this target, as:

a) It brings about the change that is so desired by the bandwagon jumping masses, in removing Pagan, which appears almost a certainty at the end of the year

b) We get a better draft pick for it

c) I'm confident in my own ability to identify individual progress in our playing list without relying on wins and losses to shed light on this subject, so I'm more than confident that the football commitee can do so as well.

d) We don't get overly-expectant for next year, and then completely shit on the new coach when we don't start winning more.

But, this point was only reinforced when Nick Stevens was declared out for the year. If anything, it gave me something to look forward to for this year.

We have a core group of players who are in and out of favour with the hardcore fanbase for varying reasons, lack of form, consistency, fitness issues, on and off-field discipline, hardness at the ball, whatever. These blokes now have 20 weeks (as good an opportunity as any, in my book), to sink or swim.

Not only does this save the eventual bringing about of a million and a half agendas come the approachment of trade week, but the hard calls that will eventually be made, will be a lot more welcomed and appreciated by an overwhelming majority of the supporter base, rather than splinter it further.

Which brings me to my next point about players sinking or swimming?

How many of our best 22 have improved this year, regardless of the team itself improving?

Fisher's come on leaps and bounds this year, easily the most improved for mine. His kicking for goal has improved out of sight. Carrazzo, also improved, become quite the ball magnet, and also improved on his kicking. Walker's improved as well, it's becoming apparent there's a trend here, that our disposal by foot has improved out of sight over the pre-season. How can it be said that our team's going nowhere, when progress as evident as that, especially in the absolute priority age group of the club that is crucial for the long term success of the club is being undertaken?

No-one has gone backwards either, as has been the case of the last 2 years, where the likes of Teague, Scotland, Carrazzo, etc have enjoyed great first seasons, only to be "found out" the year after and spending time in the magoos. Murphy and Simpson have found themselves the target of extra attention, but are still doing the same things that worked well last season.

The likes of Whitnall, Houlihan, Lappin, Fevola, Scotland, Saddington, Ackland, McLaren and Waite, are playing for their careers at Carlton. Some have responded, some obviously haven't. Yet there's still time. If it works, great, I'd like to be able to point to senior players showing leadership and standing up against adversity such as the season ending injury to one of our key players, if it doesn't, won't miss a wink of sleep knowing that they've been delisted or traded for bottom dollar if they aren't pulling their weight, when given an opportunity to do so.

Funnily enough, every frustration at how we went last year, has been addressed, and hasn't made a change, showing that the general majority of the supporter group, are morons and don't know anything about structuring a football list.

I particularly love the line about how we don't give the kids a role like Mick Malthouse does. Our full back this year, in Setanta o'hAilpin, less than 20 games, and has played on all the elite forwards in the comp to date. Do we look past Jordan Russell's run with roles, a role that he has done so well with previously? Gibbs being given some challenging roles in defense, which like it or not, isn't going to send him backwards as a player if he is to be believed to be the player everyone has deemed him to be. Or even to be facetious, Marc Murphy being our prime on-baller, which although is due to a lack of anyone else. We also can't forget Walker's run with roles in his development as a player, which didn't hurt him, Carrazo's clean up jobs on Davey and the like before being elevated into the midfield either.

We're playing attractive football again as opposed to "that flooding crap". We're kicking 20 goals plus a game, and in the process, giving more food for thought to opposition coaches as to who might cause a headache by bobbing up with 2-3 goals a game, as opposed to Fev kicking 80% of our score.

The kids are being played ahead of the senior players. Bannister, Teague, McLaren have been nowhere near senior selection so far, and probably won't be, at least not at the preference to a young player.

Whatever other problems that are there, are endemic of the current coach, and I expect them to be gone when he goes. He's a lame duck coach, and as such, these problems that follow are equally as lame duck. You can't have one without the other.

We know he's going to go, so why sit around and whinge about things that either are grossly misproportioned, or short-term problems at best?

Can please all of the people some of the time, or even some of the people all the time, but certainly not all of the people, all the time....

Best. Metaphor. EVER

someones changed their tune

_________________
*(grow - fun - gah)

Yeah but whatabout your whataboutism.

Not necessarily.

Still ardent in the belief that these problems stem from Pagan being our senior coach, and that whilst if he is sacked mid-season, whoever takes over will still have the remnants of these problems for the rest of the season anyway.

Basically, I have no reason to be so angry towards the performances this year.

yeah fair enough man - wasnt having a dig

i reckon there's as much shit on here as the next guy

_________________
*(grow - fun - gah)

Yeah but whatabout your whataboutism.

Great post Hoggy. Agreed with pretty much everything, except two of the players you listed in the playing for careers sentence. I think you can take Fev and Scotland out of that list, who have been very good players for the BLues in these tough times. I believe that Scotland is very under-rated in AFL standings. And Fev is flawed genious, who without we would be pathetic.

I would say that Houla, Lappin, Kouta, Saddo, McLaren, Whitnall and Waite are definitely playing for their careers.
- So far Lappin has come through well and should stay at the end of the year. He is all class.
- Kouta played well yesterday but given that our youngsters will be a year older next year and will need more opportunities, I think he should retire at year end.
- Lance is starting to hit form and will be around for another year or so.
- Saddo will be delisted at year's end
- McLaren is borderline, just depends if one of our other youngsters (rucks) are ready. I would say he's more likely to be delisted.
- Houla and Waite should be considered for Trade. It kills me to consider trading Waite but if we could get something decent for him I would definitely consider it. Otherwise he stays. He was improved this year and another 10 games in defence should come on. Houla either plays midfield or forward or he goes. He is killing us deep in defence.

I've been angry since pagan was first appointed and nothing pagan has improved things. That is not to say that i post with emotion though - I'd prefer to formulate debate rather than rant.

The gist of your arguement is that this is a wasted year because we cant/wont make the 8. That is wrong. A season should never be wasted just because we dont make the finals - we should be developing our youth. To my mind, and most observers we arent doing it adequately.

You say we cant do anything midseason - well yes, we can. We can get rid of the 'lame duck' coach and put in a caretaker coach with an edict to provide our younger players with a positive framework in which they can develop.

That means giving the youngsters maximum game time and rotating older/established players through the bench more often (including Fev, scotland, houlahan, thornton, whitnall, lappin, kouta). Basically the majority of bench time should be occupied by players who have peaked/or are no longer in the upward phase of development.

Secondly, players which arent putting in 100% shouldnt be in the team (ackland!). If that means aisake and hampson in 3 week rotations through the AFL and bullants then so be it (to allow them to learn whilst offering some protection for their bodies) - just let them know what they are up for. As for ackland, drop him to the bullants RESERVES and let him know in no uncertain terms that unless he offers 100% consistently that is where he will rot for the rest of his contract.

Thridly it means giving our younger players positive roles within a game. Rather than having them tag opponents, allow them to go head to head even if it means we cop a pasting (we are going to lose anyway right?). Relase walker onto the wing, gibbs to the midfield or HFF, Russell to the wing, blackwell on ball, actually structure the team so that Kennedy is used going forward. Let the know that they have the full confidence of the coaching staff and back them into succeed!

Scrap the 1/2assed roles - allow whitnall to play forward each game, Waite as an attacking CHB each game, houlhan upforward/midfield rather than defence- give them defined roles to perform.

Fact is, when it comes to discussing a coaches development of players, it is very hard to say how much is through coaching input and how much is through natural physical development/maturity as players move from 18 throughto say 23.

Fev was always going to kick on once he realised - shit, this footy gig isnt going to last forever, I should actually put some effort in on the track (he said it himself). Talent means shit if you dont put the effort in (see angwin). The whole brittain/Fev?pagan thing was way overrated - how many coaches out there would love a player who didnt put in 2nd efforts, or even any effort on the training track? - there is a limit as to how much you can put into a player before you cut your losses (otherwise we would still be loving angwin)
Fisher - always seen as a good player with qusetion marks on his body/frane (again physical development). Kicking? - improved somewhat but then again, prior to knee etc his kicking durnig his first season was actually reasonable.
Carazzo - always had the ability to win the ball, yet never given the OPPORTUNITY in the senior team. Suspect kicking, yet how much skill work has been done by pagan over his 5 years?
walker - compare his frame now to when he was drafted. Natural physical development and hard work. Run with roles? How about allowing him to play with his natural flair (within certain parameters). Dont run with Judd, go head to head. The difference? Run with/tagging roles mean your first priority is to stop your opponent from getting the ball (or make it difficult for them) - scragging, niggling, blocking etc. Going head to head means backing the player to win sufficient contested ball against the opponent, and telling him to focus more on being used and burning the opposition going forward.

I wont go through the others but lets move onto players where we can measure development - the senior/harder bodies. How many actually improved under pagan? How many has he successfully developed? Absolutely NONE.

houlahan - neglible improvement, and probably better a few years ago when he was played forward (more physically developed now though)
lappin - still a good player, has struggled siginificantly under pagan at several points in time
whitnall - struggled under pagan and a game plan that is not conducive to his style of play
scotland - always good but lacked opportunity at collingwood
waite - done nothing spectacular, good one week and then given a completely diffeernt role the week after. Lets not forget that kouta (a similar athelete/footballer) really kicked off after he was given a role at CHB and a season or so to really develop in that role before kicking off onto bigger and better things. Unless waite is given that opportunity he will NEVER become what we all hope him to be (and what he has shown glimpses of).
But lets not look at those on the list - the damning statistic is all those mature bodies that were there when pagan came in and failed to develop under him.
Bannister, prendergast, sporn, davies, livingston etc - all of which carved up the VFL.
In 2004 prendergast was probably one of our most improved players when given game time (due to frenchs injury) - kicked goals, won the ball, played a role. 2005, NO faith shown, got lost (as atheletes playing footy with no game time do - see koutas performances each time coming back from injury) and subsequently cut.
Livingston - showed plenty of promise in his first couple seasons, pagan recruits martyn (effectively saying I dont think you are good enough or ready yet son) and the rest is history. At least his mate got to 300 games...
sporn/davies - all showed a bit prior to pagan, nothing since.

Oh but they were great VFL players but not quite up to AFL standard? bullshit. Some perhaps - not all.
Oh, but senior players cant be deveoped? - people dont lose their brains at 22. They can still learn to kick (main criticism of most of our players over the past few years) and where to run/how to win the ball (or perhaps all these irish players have IQs of 160+ whilst our ours have IQs of 60). Perhaps the Hawks should cut roughhead next year if he isnt a gun by then.

I'm not so much interested in the on field performance of the team - what I want is a framework in place that allows the team to develop in a positive manner. That means having faith in the youngsters (blackwell played well on the weekend, but how much ground time was he really given?). That means a game plan that suits the majority of our list and allowing players to settle into their roles. Once we get those aspects right, the players will naturally progress (and faster than many might expect).

Knowing that, why should we tread water for the rest of this season?

Why arent we doing what is right for the team in terms of their long term future?

well done lads, i pretty much agree with most things here.

despite some our losses we are well on the right track heading towards success.

for the first time in a few years, you can see the light at the end of the tunnel. the development is there, the plan is developing, the kids are developing, sure its frustrating being in winning positions, and ending up not losing, but its also a joy to see we are now kicking 100+ a game, without relying on Fevola to kick 10, its a joy to see Setana improve with
every game, its enjoy to see kids debut, Anderson looks the goods.

And for those to say why done we have plan a, b or c.

Well perhaps, lets get a side that can do plan A well and for four quarters before we start doing plan B or C

It will all come with time. I seriously liken us to the same path as Geelong has taken (who i think are our best chance for a Vic GF Winner)

And i think we will take the same development path. this year will be the year we lost what we should win, despite playing well, next year we will win a more than we should use, the year after that we will start to play some really good footy, they year after that, we have a dead set crack.

its happening, we just need patience.

_________________
Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

lets close this site down then hoggy, no point to it really, we'll wait til next year before we get fired up.

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I said pretty much the same thing (on the kids at least) in the "Development of our draftees thread"...

_________________
Click here to follow TalkingCarlton on twitter
TalkingCarlton Posting Rules

Easily been our two best players over the past 4 years, don't get me wrong, but still have their detractors, due to Fev's poor body language at times, and Scotland's supposed lack of accountability.

Both have shown a willingness to step up to the plate when it counts, however, if that were to change, I could see some of the natives getting restless, and seeing draft picks being wanted in exchange. Not that I necessarily agree with the idea whatsoever either.



I reckon Saddington is safe for another year, I have a sneaking suspicion that if we continue down the road of the priority pick, we'll probably use Kouta's last game as a marketing tool for an otherwise unwatchable game, to draw a crowd towards the end of the year, say at about round 18, or whenever the last week of the year possible to promote a rookie would be. McLaren is pretty much gone, and if the Blues are serious are about finding the money for Judd, given that Houlihan would have to be one of our top 5 highest paid players (Fev - Kouta - Stevens - Lance - .....), would be a monty to say bye bye. I'd say we're probably too proud to trade Waite, given the effort we've put into him.

Not necessarily - I'm pretty much in agreeance with you in what we should be looking to get out of it, but I don't believe this is a season that we should be basing success or there lack of, on the wins and losses column.

Plenty to get out of the year, and I think that whilst it's fashionable to say that will come from playing the kids, we have more to find out, from seeing which of the senior lads will sink or swim, given Stevens being out for the year.



Absolutely we can, however, I don't believe that it'd change the status quo of the winning/losing situation, and let's face it, a large majority of our supporter base, are as thick as bricks, and won't tolerate it. No good making that sort of progress and going in next year with 28k members, because too many can't see the forrest from the trees in that regard. Just as it is, getting 10 wins or so, as we did in 2004, missing out on the priority pick, and being unable to keep it up the next year.

Not to mention that it goes against the Pratt ethos of getting the best bloke possible, it's much easier to keep the natives happy, get rid of the bloke at the end of the year, appoint the new coach, still have the priority pick, and be able to attract members to retain their membership on the basis that the new establishment weren't involved with last year's schmozzle. Given some of the replies I got to that petition last year, I'd dare say, we may even improve on this year's figures.



Can't say I agree with that one. Only outcome is that you give the kids a real reason to be truly demoralised, by being thumped physically and on the scoreboard, whilst you alienate the senior players by giving them what they don't deserve, and risk having another Thornton/Russell problem come trade week. Again, putting the new coach behind the 8 ball before he even starts.



I'd rather attempt to get whatever minimal value for money we can out of this ridiculous 3 year deal. Play him for all of this year, until Hampson or Aisake prove they're ready (and not just "well he's a better option than Ackland"), prove without a shadow of a doubt, he's a lazy, unmotivated, overpaid hack, and then Bullants 2's next year, when there's something to be gained out of it.)



Gibbs into the midfield makes me cringe, only have to look at the battering Murphy gets to see why both of these moves are just not on. Gibbs to the forward line perhaps?



Agreed.



As much as I have a lot of criticisms about the bloke, I can't say he's been negligent with the development of our younger players. Regardless of whether the current status quo of such players is natural development, or through coaching input, the majority of our young blokes consistently playing in our best 22, are at a standard that I expect.


I wont go through the others but lets move onto players where we can measure development - the senior/harder bodies. How many actually improved under pagan? How many has he successfully developed? Absolutely NONE.



Is it natural development or is it coach's input? Can't be one thing for young players, and another on the basis that these blokes were largely, hacks?

Out of those you listed, I have a large problem with how he used Livo. Otherwise, the rest of them carved their own niche of ineptness, without requiring too much help from the coaching staff.



Also wrecked his shoulder late into 04 just when he was becoming very important for us, and limited his pre-season the next year.



Yep, ridiculous situation that was.



Were also either Mike Willissee's friend, Quentin's stunt double, or ridiculously unmotivated to play.



Plenty of senior players dominating the VFL for the last 10 years that have never even been looked at twice by recruiters. Have we even looked twice at Frankie Raso yet?



I'm pretty happy with the current framework, aside from a) our unwillingness to kick to Kennedy, and b) the lack of flexibility in our game day moves. Seems random young bloke is always going to be given 30 minutes game time, no matter what variables happen on the day, and that our big move is going to be Whitnall forward or back. Nothing else in between

No, don't let him just bludge in the bullants for 3 years putting his hand out for an easy paycheck.
If he's going to receive good money make him earn it!! Get him out on the ground and keep the runner in his ear telling him to compete and put his body on the line for the club he's employed by.
At the moment, Aisake Hampson & Jacobs are learning their trades at the correct level IMO.

_________________
There's so much I could say...

In the Epic Tome "Grietas Afeitadas del 20o siglo" the Author R. Slica expounds on the theory that Guevera along with many of the South American
communistas (Particularly the Brasil based rebel) used to have a crack and sack wax every month - hence the term Che-ven.

_________________
Ecclesiastes 1:4, "One generation passes away, and another generation comes: but The Blues abide forever."

Excellent thread/post Hoggy.

I strongly agree with you.

_________________
There is no footy god

actually most contracts would have a match payment component - VFL reserves = no match payments and in addition to that sends a clear message that unless he gets his act together his career is down the toilet

it's reportedly a lucrative contract ..make him earn it!!

_________________
There's so much I could say...