In the words of Martin di Stasio from the TV series Frontline "Some people say it's the player's fault. Yet others say it's the coach's fault. I say it's the players fault".

Let's break up into our two opposing camps and start playing the blame game. These are the facts as I see them.

FACT: Our list was crap when Denis Pagan arrived. We finished on the bottom of the ladder for a reason.
FACT: We were given a two year draft penalty that stripped us of two years to try and do something about it. That's what draft penalties are supposed to do. Penalise you. Mission accomplished AFL.
FACT: Our two year penalty turned into a three year penalty when not one of our 2000 draftees turned into anything better than honest battler.
FACT: Our 2001 draft has turned up one incosistent player in Jarrad Waite.
FACT: Of our 2002 pickups we seem to have dug up one diamond from the rough that has taken time to turn from carbon into something more precious (Kade Simpson). Brad Fisher is a favourite of mine but his poor kicking for goal probably explains why he fell to pick 72.
FACT: Our 2003 pickups seem to mirror 2002. A good player (Walker)and a player with flaws which explains why he fell to pick 72 (DeLuca).

Which one of our players has turned it around at another club after we've let them go during this period? It's because they're not up to it and we've still got another half dozen that wouldn't be on our list if not for the draft penalties.

Please refer to the Blueseum for our drafting history and tell me who would be a superstar if we had a different coach.

http://www.blueseum.org/cfc/tiki-index.php?page=The+National+Draft

OK, I've strapped on my helmet, let the grenades fly. Convince me that another coach could have done any better with the list he inherited.

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If you'd given me the choice of going out and beating four men and smashing a goal in from thirty yards against Liverpool
or going to bed with Miss World, it would have been a difficult choice. Luckily, I had both. - George Best

I'm fortunate enough to run a business that employs some quality people.
Occasionally they make mistakes.

I have this theory that if an error takes place, the reason is-

a. They have been insufficiently trained which is my responsibility.

b. We have insufficient structures in place to enable them to make correct decisions. Which comes back to a.

I like your theory better.
I'll just save the effort and blame them.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Four years and the pl;ayers still have not worked out a game plan for themselves... tsk tsk...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Do you think that the skills and talent needed by your employees are at the elite level comparable to AFL footballers (who number only 600 out of all those playing football), BV? Do you interview prospective employees to ensure they will be capable of doing the job? Have you ever had an employee who just didn't have the ability to do the job? Have you ever had to move an employee on?

If only you had been in charge of an AFL club when I was playing footy. I could have been an AFL player, even though I didn't have the talent. You could have trained me to AFL standard in how to mark, to kick, to handball, made me an athlete, shown me where to run and how to pick up possessions, and given me the ability to make good decisions under pressure.

I think it is Cammo's fault....we were all good until the www.sackpagan.com controversy.

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Back like a raging case of pubic lice

Its not the losing that irks me, its how we lose that hurts.

The coach lost the players twice. Any coach who had the players behind him would've done better. That's super important. Remember we won 10 games 2 years ago plus the Wizard Cup. You don't do that unless you have something. Who didn't expect something close to finals after the Wizzer win? That kills all list arguments before you start, not that it was a super list, although it does have a few AA's there (admittedly Kouta ain't what he once was) plus the Coleman medalist. Since then we have won less each year since with some embarrassing, uncommitted, disinterested performances such as yesterday, with a team that, I believe is better than in 2004. Shouldn't that win/loss ratio be going the other way.

Just to add further to drafting. Remember we picked up Stevens in the 2003 PSD as well.

That's where this year has been good IMO. The losses have been 'good'.

Carlton have won more quarters of football this year than just about any other team outside the top eight.

This means we are getting beaten as a result of a small 'burst' from the other team.

Despite this weeks result. The relentless four quarter floggings have been less frequent this year.

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|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|

Unfortunately SOS, the first thing I look for is common sense.
Obviously judging by your post, you would'nt get to first base.

Footballers are like any other person.
Only the elite students are able to be Doctors, lawyers etc.
Only the elite athletes and junior footballers are able to join AFL clubs.
There is a process of elimination along the way.
But that doesnt mean they are quality AFL players when they are drafted.

If a prospective employee wants me to hire him, he is interviewed and hopefully his strengths and weaknesses are identified.
My role as an employer is to utilise those strengths and build on them and to address the weaknesses.
This person may have tertiary qualifications but the intricacies of the work and knowledge that takes years to learn is where I come in.
It is my responsibility to put measures in place so that this person can reach their full potential as soon as possible.

If Brad Fisher comes in to the system and cant kick, the kicking fairy wont automatically make it happen.
Systems need to be put in place to remedy the problem.
It should have been identified immediately and all efforts made to fix the problem.
Same with Andrew Walker, Jarrad waite etc.

I've been to training probably 100 times over the past 4 years.
Do you know how many times I've seen someone working on Brad Fishers kicking?
Once.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I think people are sufferiung the accumulative effect.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

It was probably Franchina... taking Fish under his wing too...

No infrustructure .. and that spells DOOM!

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Poor spelling is usually the first sign.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Good point, mitigated by severe flooding in the first half of the year, but important nonetheless. Im working on an article called 'When the heat is on' for that purpose and may need some assistance / review work.

My incomplete post was more about the flipside of your point, J. We lose in my mind because of poor to very poor ball movement going forward. We show a much better resolve in defence, helped by Thornton's second half of the year plus Setanta, but running through the middle we seem to turn it over, either through slow movement (allowing others to flood) or just a shank. Its like we're moving ahead but there's a flock of gnats at our heels forcing us to turn it over.

na thats a sign the brain is faster than the hands = oh for the old gunslinger days!

as for denis's methods - perhaps he is the osmosis king!

Sure is hell a good speaker 5 minutes is all he needs to give at the coaches lunch to cover EVERYTHING!!!!!!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

What's the second sine?

running a buisness where no one makes mistakes

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I'm not sure anyone could have achieved a much better win/loss ratio. But I reckon another coach could give more confidence and reassurance to the mug punter supporters out there.

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you mean to the mug punters in here. Let's not assume our thoughts are the ordinary punter's thoughts - we are in the fish bowl here.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Do you go to the 12 or so sessions during the week or only the 3 or 4 that are open to the public. I would love to know what happens in the other sessions too, but that isn't possible. Any more than we get to see the offseason sessions in which Libba worked with AW on his kicking and Eddie on his fitness. The training sessions open to the public may just be the tip of the iceberg. And it stands to reason that the group sessions would not be well suited to individual skills training.

The other thing you missed out in the analogy with your work is that no doubt you recruit at different levels within your business. If you recruit a top-level recruit, your business' health is quite reliant on a high level of performance. Much more so than with a bottom-level recruit. If the top-level recruit is disappointing, that is a major problem. Given the draft, our top picks need to show a lot for us to keep pace. Massie, Livo, Wiggo and Sporny just weren't up to it at that level. Massie might be capable of filling a spot in a good team, but he has never lived up to his draft pick. Wiggo and Sporny might be the same. And Livo perhaps never had the opportunity to live up to his pick because of injuries. If you brought in such high-level recruits and they didn't live up to expectations, you would replace them. But you wouldn't have to wait a year, and you wouldn't be dependent on getting a high draft pick to gain access to someone worth employing.

If you want me to agree with you that Pagan drew a bad hand, then fine, I agree. No real arguements there, though I would add the caveat that it was never as bad as he made it out to be.

1) he could see half the cards before he got here. It's not like he didn't know he would be dealing with Wiggins and Sporn and Livo and these were the guys he was going to have to turn into footballers.
2) he also got Stevens and French for nothing which partially offsets the loss of draft picks.
3) he made the decision to bring mcgrath, chambers, mott, angwin, saddington, Longmuir etc. to the club. He can't dodge that bullet.

But none of that really matters, you've missed the point completely. It's not the club's job to be patient and understanding with our coach. Chumps like Clarkson get paid to muddle through and collect draft picks, but Pagan was (when we hired him) supposed to be the premier coach in the league. Pagan is not getting paid $700k to receive a "fair go", he is getting paid it to achieve coaching miracles. Now for a while there, to his credit, he was actually doing that. 7 wins from the last 12 games of 04 and pre-season premiers in 05 against WC no less, but to go from there to consecutive wooden spoons is unacceptable.

It doesn't matter that no one else may have been able to acheive anything better with our list, it only matters that Pagan has done nothing in the last two seasons to convince members and sponsors that he can do anything better with it. It's as simple as that.