So is your point that Voss got what he wanted from Austin?

So it’s not recruitment and it’s not coaches, it’s just the players?

100%

Such a good point!!

Most people forget Collingwood picked up the best young goal kicking mid, for a few mid range draft picks.

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"Dont count the games, make the games count"

I agree with what you've said, maybe not the part about Voss though.
TBH, I don't know if he will or won't be.
None of us do, but I've seen enough to keep him on and adjust the playing list a little to see if he can get us back in the finals.

I agree we need to make players accountable also.
BV and GEX have both pointed out that Acres at his current capacity is probably still better than say Lucas.
I don't fully disagree, however I do think we have the capacity to make a change this weekend to send a message, but we clearly didn't.
Maybe Voss is trying to save his bacon, maybe the tail is wagging the dog, who knows.
I don't think we have the right systems because of personnel, otherwise injuries wouldn't affect the game plan so much as they do.

GWS has a lot better depth than us, all over the ground.
They let Haynes walk who is now one of our better defenders and their defence is still off the charts.
Imagine if we didn't have Haynes and let's say JSOS left, we'd be a shambles down back.
And that is the thing about our depth, we need pretty much a fully fit team (Bondi has calculated less than 8 injured) in order for us to win games.
This is now the second year we have struggled with key injuries, our list is fragile at best.

None of the above.

You alluded that Austin did recruit the type players Vossy wanted. Its a good point, and worthy of investigation. I thought I'd help find out.

I thought the best way to find out is to list all players who Austin recruited, and what their impact will fuel the debate no doubt. The we can determine for ourselves whether Vossy has the tools he's asked for (if that's the case), or if the tools Austin gave Vossy were duds. Hence the question at the end.

I've got my thoughts, based on facts, but that's beside the point with my response to your post.

The comments made after the year was to reflect the objectives at the end of each year, being mindful we have limited selections due to contracts.

Prior to Vossy's arrival we all agree we needed more midfield depth to help out Crippa and Walsh, some speed off the backline, because we were bombing the ball out of defense, towards the line, and, as mall forward to take over from Betts' imminent retirement end of that year.

To fill those abovementioned gaps prior to Voss Austin recruited Williams (for midfield role), and Saad to give us run from backline, and Durdin with our first selection in a small forward.

Prior to thr pre Voss haul we had 8, 7, 7, 4 wins from the previous seasons, to give us some perspective.

I'm still thinking it through, but I will not dismiss the fact that its the players missing set shots have cost us 4-5 games this year, and the inability of the small forwards to have an impact.

I also think questioning the small forwards is debatable, because I don't think our contested brand of footy created congestion in our forwardline, because half the time our forwards are running back to the forwardline, and left behind because of, yes, fast ball movement.

I blame Charlie and Harry for playing underdone, or mentally in the right frame, and just a lacking creativity by choosing to stand on a spot with their hand up signaling players up field to bomb it to them. They failed to mark the ball too many times, and hardly led to the ball carrier.

So, the players are not excused from scrutiny or blame from me. The are the biggest problem we have imo. Skills, IQ, and injuries, imo have been the biggest culprits for our losses this year.

Now I'm thinking through the Austin vs Vossy debate and look forward to the discussion. Did Austin give Vossy the players he wanted? The answer to that would tell me if the coaches or the recruiter are also at fault.

I don't really know how we can say either are for sure, whther you refuse to believe it or not.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

He's out of contract and Wright has good relationship with Collingwood list management. Good chance to land him. Riley O'Brien is the other option whose also holding off signing current offers from club.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Not quite like that champ.

We were courting Cameron during the 2019 season when he was at the Swans then we went cold on him the 2nd half of the season. Pies was his only choice. We ended up getting Newman, and had recruited DeKoning and Philips.

Callum Sinclair's shoulder injury ended his season which left the Swans with no ruckman. Sam Naismith knee issues and Darcy Cameron's constant quad issues meant they were not available just when the team needed them. They were deemed unreliable at the Swans and discared/ traded for cheap picks.

I really wanted Cameron because he was fantastic playing senior footy in WA and West coast wanted him. Swans recruited him because Kurt Tippett and sam Reid were constantly injured and Cameron was thrown into the fire at 18yo. His body god smashed. I saw him live and he was exactly what we needed to support Kreuzer when Philps retired.

Answer is, he was overlooked by SOS. Pittonet was the year after.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

I'd say Austin targeted the right positions.
As for the right type of player for that position and who asked for what, we will never know.
But it is painstakingly obvious that those positions mostly lack speed, skill and IQ and to a degree, durability to keep up with the development of the game.
Maybe they hedged their bets on capped rotations and went for more endurance based players over speed and hoped the relentless pressure for 4 quarters would win games.
I guess they didn't count on fast, skilful and evasive players also having the ability to run the game out because they hit their targets more often and can reserve energy better with accuracy and the ability to evade contact more often.

Last nights game, there were 12 players that kicked at 50% or less, 8 were from Geelong.
And out of the top 10 players, 6 were from the Lions and 3 had 100% (Geelong had 2).

If you don't have foot speed you need IQ and skills and if you don't have either, you need contests.

Well done Austin
https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 2=C&type=A

Sent from my SM-F956B using Tapatalk

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Oof...

Not as bad as taking Ashton Moir ahead of Logan Morris .

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All my dangerous friends

Ouch....
This is the problem with banking on draft picks though.
Very hit and miss and at Carlton we like to miss more than we hit.............especially on the ground.

Stupid club keeps making the wrong decisions

Those who think we can still tweak this team around the edges and regenerate quickly will be disappointed

Timing is everything in game development and list builds

Our supposed elite core are past their best. Ten years and waiting is too long to build a contending team.

Should have made those changes when Voss first started as coach

The good teams regenerate constantly to remain as a contender

We stuck to a rigid game style and team who don’t know how to transition the ball

i refuse to believe that. i think some of the kids we have will turn out great - two more coming in hot in dean and walker. looking at how rapidly hawks, port, pies have turned their lists around when everyone was saying in the cellar for the next 5 years - gives me great hope under wright we can do the same.

teams don't need to do 5 year rebuilds anymore. we have enough assets and quality here to do a similar turn-around to what the pies did. they looked lost in the wilderness for the next decade when they hired mcrae. next minute ... flags.

we just need to be smart about who we retain this summer, and everyone else can go. grab that compo and salary cap and let wright work his magic.

next year will be a down year and 2027, we can be back with jagga leading the middle.

Yes agreed.
Some like to reference Collingwood 'tinkering' with their list a few years ago however they were a top 4 side for a number of years beforehand and had a generational player in Nick Daicos coming through.
We need to rebuild again and hopefully get it right this time without so many botched draft/trade selections e.g. SPS, Dow, O'Brien, McGovern, Marchbank, Setterfield, Stocker, Kemp etc
I'm hopeful that we won't bottom out like 2015-18 as we have established players with draft/free agency currency plus some talented youth in Jagga, Cody Walker, O'Farrell and a few others.

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There is no footy god

we weren't far from a top 4 side in 2023.

jagga could be generational? walker too. weiters and charlie still have 5-6 years of solid production in them. hof is coming thru. and most importantly we have some serious tradeable assets at our disposal that the pies could only dream of when wright turned them around.


we're good. if wright can operate how he needs to, unhindered. if the culture around the filthy elite who run the club can be overthrown, or at least silenced, we can do this.

So is your point that Voss got what he wanted from Austin?

So it’s not recruitment and it’s not coaches, it’s just the players?[/quote]

None of the above.

You alluded that Austin did recruit the type players Vossy wanted. Its a good point, and worthy of investigation. I thought I'd help find out.

I thought the best way to find out is to list all players who Austin recruited, and what their impact will fuel the debate no doubt. The we can determine for ourselves whether Vossy has the tools he's asked for (if that's the case), or if the tools Austin gave Vossy were duds. Hence the question at the end.

I've got my thoughts, based on facts, but that's beside the point with my response to your post.

The comments made after the year was to reflect the objectives at the end of each year, being mindful we have limited selections due to contracts.

Prior to Vossy's arrival we all agree we needed more midfield depth to help out Crippa and Walsh, some speed off the backline, because we were bombing the ball out of defense, towards the line, and, as mall forward to take over from Betts' imminent retirement end of that year.

To fill those abovementioned gaps prior to Voss Austin recruited Williams (for midfield role), and Saad to give us run from backline, and Durdin with our first selection in a small forward.

Prior to thr pre Voss haul we had 8, 7, 7, 4 wins from the previous seasons, to give us some perspective.

I'm still thinking it through, but I will not dismiss the fact that its the players missing set shots have cost us 4-5 games this year, and the inability of the small forwards to have an impact.

I also think questioning the small forwards is debatable, because I don't think our contested brand of footy created congestion in our forwardline, because half the time our forwards are running back to the forwardline, and left behind because of, yes, fast ball movement.

I blame Charlie and Harry for playing underdone, or mentally in the right frame, and just a lacking creativity by choosing to stand on a spot with their hand up signaling players up field to bomb it to them. They failed to mark the ball too many times, and hardly led to the ball carrier.

So, the players are not excused from scrutiny or blame from me. The are the biggest problem we have imo. Skills, IQ, and injuries, imo have been the biggest culprits for our losses this year.

Now I'm thinking through the Austin vs Vossy debate and look forward to the discussion. Did Austin give Vossy the players he wanted? The answer to that would tell me if the coaches or the recruiter are also at fault.

I don't really know how we can say either are for sure, whther you refuse to believe it or not.[/quote]

I’m not ignoring your question, just too pissed off to answer.

Can we sack everyone and just start again? Again.

As long as we persist with the bomb, bomb, bomb game plan... it won't matter how much we blow up the list.

We won't need a major rebuild providing we change our outdated coaching philosophies, and recruit players to suit.

Fix the coaches box first, and that doesn't necessarily mean sakc Voss... then look at list changes... imo

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“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” ― Richard Feynman

None of the above.

You alluded that Austin did recruit the type players Vossy wanted. Its a good point, and worthy of investigation. I thought I'd help find out.

I thought the best way to find out is to list all players who Austin recruited, and what their impact will fuel the debate no doubt. The we can determine for ourselves whether Vossy has the tools he's asked for (if that's the case), or if the tools Austin gave Vossy were duds. Hence the question at the end.

I've got my thoughts, based on facts, but that's beside the point with my response to your post.

The comments made after the year was to reflect the objectives at the end of each year, being mindful we have limited selections due to contracts.

Prior to Vossy's arrival we all agree we needed more midfield depth to help out Crippa and Walsh, some speed off the backline, because we were bombing the ball out of defense, towards the line, and, as mall forward to take over from Betts' imminent retirement end of that year.

To fill those abovementioned gaps prior to Voss Austin recruited Williams (for midfield role), and Saad to give us run from backline, and Durdin with our first selection in a small forward.

Prior to thr pre Voss haul we had 8, 7, 7, 4 wins from the previous seasons, to give us some perspective.

I'm still thinking it through, but I will not dismiss the fact that its the players missing set shots have cost us 4-5 games this year, and the inability of the small forwards to have an impact.

I also think questioning the small forwards is debatable, because I don't think our contested brand of footy created congestion in our forwardline, because half the time our forwards are running back to the forwardline, and left behind because of, yes, fast ball movement.

I blame Charlie and Harry for playing underdone, or mentally in the right frame, and just a lacking creativity by choosing to stand on a spot with their hand up signaling players up field to bomb it to them. They failed to mark the ball too many times, and hardly led to the ball carrier.

So, the players are not excused from scrutiny or blame from me. The are the biggest problem we have imo. Skills, IQ, and injuries, imo have been the biggest culprits for our losses this year.

Now I'm thinking through the Austin vs Vossy debate and look forward to the discussion. Did Austin give Vossy the players he wanted? The answer to that would tell me if the coaches or the recruiter are also at fault.

I don't really know how we can say either are for sure, whther you refuse to believe it or not.[/quote]

I’m not ignoring your question, just too pissed off to answer.

Can we sack everyone and just start again? Again.[/quote]

I feel the same way at this minute Des.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Matt Rowell re-signing with Gold Coast today may give us a lookin in 2 years time

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"IF YOU FAIL TO PREPARE, YOU'RE PREPARED TO FAIL" - Mark Spitz