17th Premiership wrote:
Love the passion on here!
I think there are a lot of valid views and part of the problem is that, despite peoples’ “100%” confidence in their own opinion, there is ample evidence to argue a counter point.
FWIW, these are some of things that have me really hoping that Graeme Wright is clear eyed about what we need to keep/stop/start:
Game planWe play like champions in the first quarter with run, dare, reasonably good skills and short kicks and passes (not bombs) into deep forward 50. But then we stop doing this. Why? Did Essendon***** do something remarkable to halt it or did they just up the pressure and contest and we just stopped. Either way, why? I do not believe it is fitness. This happened in the 2nd quarter!
SkillsOur skills look shite. However, I would bet that in any of the better teams, these players skills would be a lot better (maybe apart from Acres whose value has never been his skills… I’m convinced his goal from the boundary in the last was actually intended to be a centred ball to the top of the square that was, as usual, off target
).
CoachingWhen Voss speaks during the week, I tend to nod along and think that most of what he says makes perfect sense. We are getting a lot of the game plan right. And yet, we keep stuffing up our F50 entries, running out of energy, seem to struggle with our footy IQ (it often looks like players are grinding through the protocols in their heads with or without the ball rather than just PLAYING like, say, the Pies or Cats or Lions seem to be doing). And it all seems so HARD for us. I was convinced we would change up our assistant coaches at the end of last season. We clearly need a better game day tactician and SOMETHING to improve our F50 entries. And btw, our F50 entries may be more about our leading patterns as much as it is about the actual kick into the forward line.
Off FieldFWIW, I tend to agree with most of what Keogh says on this. I feel like when we were a powerhouse, we were led by captains of industry keen to use their skills, networks etc to make Carlton great. Clearly, it was a different time but that was the intent. In the modern era, I feel like our Board members are made up more of people looking to use the football club to brandish their own status and/or improve their own businesses. Look at how Collingwood is doing it post-Eddie. And, btw, just on Collingwood- there is a lot we can learn from them. Heading into 2022, most people thought their list was crap and they’d finish well down the bottom half of the ladder. Everyone underestimated their off field changes and this had a measurable effect on their performance. Suddenly, that mediocre list was full of stars.
Our playersWhich brings me finally to our players. The most important point here is that I agree with those who say we cannot afford to overpay our stars. If I was Graeme Wright, I would be sitting them all down and letting them know they can choose to take a smallish haircut, or they can pursue opportunities elsewhere. I’m not saying we halve their salaries. But if they want to win premierships, we need to be able to spread the cash more.
On the other hand, I am not convinced that our ‘bottom six’ is as bad as many proclaim. As I said above, in a better team with a better system, I think their skills would look a lot better. Having said that, I would look to cut those who cannot keep up with the game plan - those with poor footy IQ. And those who are not ruthless competitors. I remember in 2023, one of the changes we made was to simplify the game plan which allowed everyone to ‘just play’. The result was great but once the rest of the competition worked us out over summer, that was no longer enough. I feel it’s a similar problem now. We need players who can think on their feet and can follow a game plan without getting all tied up in their minds. Many times, it’s the extra half a second hesitation that costs us, puts the next player in the chain under pressure, forces an error or causes us to miss an opportunity.
I’m not 100% sure whether we need a few small tweaks or a complete overhaul. I’m hoping the former, but fear it might be the latter. I do note there are plenty of examples of teams in similar 50/50 positions where it all seemed lost but it wasn’t (Richmond 2016, Brisbane half way through 2024, Melbourne 2020, Geelong 2006…).
We need to be able to sort this all out over the remaining rounds. Whether or not we can scrape into the finals, we need to be clear - and right - about what we do next. Because this… isn’t working. I just hope we pull the right (Wright?) rein!!
Talk about Food for Thought. Thanks 17th
I have enjoyed the passion and the posts. I sit in the Cazz BV Sidey camp. I don’t get too high or too low and look at our game and team with hope and belief we are not average, but have average moments, and the stars we have, have what’s required to be a star. I don’t think we are far off finding the right track.
Your post has been on my mind. I ask the same questions over and over.
I do think you hit a nerve which made me think, for half a second, then the answer slipped out of my head.
Half a second.
Only a couple points you made I’m finding difficult to digest
Off field, we are not much different now to the Pies with Eddie and today. Sycophants are everywhere and are part of the fabric of a strong footy club. Those networks of people put their hard earned cash into the club and that is their toy/ hobby. They do not have a negative influence on the onfield performance. Sayers drama is on another level, and I’m sure his actions were disruptive. That’s a one off.
The issue is Football Dept to me. They have not made great decisions, and the game plan might be obvious in first quarters but I don’t get the plan B we play thereafter.
Your point re bottom 6 is not clear. Are you referring to our bottom 6 of the list or bottom 6 in any given week, with the exception of the Geelong game when we had our lowest number of players on our injury list, and North and WCE when we had 7 out: our wins?
IMO the bottom 6 reflects on our depth. The ability to cover injured players. It’s wonderful to believe that if the Pies take approach on one soldier out another soldier in, should be the same at Carlton, but I don’t believe players in our best 23 who haven’t completed a preseason, or added to the team as last thought are the calibre we need for depth if we want to believe it’s one soldier out one soldier in to cover injury: White Evans OKeefe F.Young, Carroll, Campo.
Because of our lack of depth we have been forced to play out of form players and there’s no pressure on spots in the team. We all have our take on players who have been played with no form. Most of them we agree with. Our lack of depth has been exposed.
Then there’s weird stuff Harry and Elijah have disrupted the team.
We alll believe that iwhen the off field and on field are both humming our window is open.
Our season was derailed from the outset with Sayers drama, and started the season with 2 players suffering mental illness, one our CHF star, McKay, who played because our star FF, Curnow, was still out injured, and the other our most skilful HF/ mid , Elijah,missing. Add to that our AA candidate in the backline, Newman did his knee, our prized draftee who was going to give us the nimbleness we needed in the midfield, gid his ACL. On top of that we have had up to 13 players on the injury list.
I don’t want to hear about other teams covering injuries, I want to focus on the fact, Carlton can’t. Other than Effendopes and Tigers we have the worst injury list this year, AND our injury list has been worse thus far this year than last year.
We are not that far off. We have not had a perfect year on field. We’ve had too many things go wrong for on field success. You need that for success. And if we have a good run over the next 8-10 weeks we will be lucky to have depth to cover injuries in Finals.
The rest of this year, we need to show what we have got, not give up, and find out who isn’t skilled enough or fit enough to be on out list.
Thanks for your well thought out response Bondi. Much appreciated. Part of the challenge I believe we face is that there are several valid issues we face, some of them conflicting in terms of prescribing the solution and, as you highlight, of varying degree - I.e. even if everyone agrees on the problem, a tweak may fix it or that may not be enough.
Boards have sycophants. The key is who is driving the Board. The fan-boys are likely to be intimidated or ‘easily convinced’ by their heroes and less likely to have the presence to ask penetrating questions that force deeper thought and responses. The big-notes might ask more robust questions but are doing so to promote or ‘big-note’ themselves, often at the expense of others or provoking a defensive rather than collaborative response. The best leaders I have seen, are very successful but also genuinely humble, genuinely curious, open in their exploration of problems and solutions.
I do think this can affect how we play but I also take your point that it is similar at most clubs.
I was referring to the bottom 6 players who play regularly at senior level. I’m not talking about the short pass that misses its target like Cerra, McGovern & Ollie did last week. That comes down to skill execution under pressure and fatigue (even though I realise most of those were not under pressure or fatigue but basic skill errors). That is not so much on the game plan.
But what is on the game plan is where and when we kick the ball, where and when various players run to either draw the ball or an opponent or just to provide options, how we exit a contest etc… I feel like too often, our play accumulates more and more pressure as we move the ball forward and we get through it when one of our stars pulls down a miraculous mark or makes a freakish play. Compared with, the hard work at the contest freeing us up and making each play down the line easier, with more margin for error. This is where the ‘bottom six’ would have more leeway to either kick to Williams in space and if the kick isn’t precise it doesn’t matter so much because Williams is free, or the kick to that bottom six player comes off because he is free or under less pressure or can see several options to help him. We did that mostly in the first quarter where our skills across the board looked much better. I’m simply proposing that, in another team, some of our maligned players would look better. (On the flip side, I also note that Paddy Dow, Jack Martin, Owies etc are not exactly setting the world on fire. While Kennedy is doing amazingly well, that was more about 2 players competing for one spot and I think Hewett is doing amazingly well so far too.)
I do think our Football Dept has a lot of improvement to work on. I link this to the game plan. For example, I’m not convinced we need to replace Voss (although I understand those who think we do). I think Voss would be in the top2 or 3 coaches in terms of leading a team into battle. Which isn’t nothing. But I do think he needs tactical support and the game plan needs work.
Finally, I agree that we’ve experienced massive trauma from Harry and Elijah not being fully available. And the injuries to Newman and Jagga. But I’m not sure that is worse than the Bulldogs with Jamarra, Bont, Darcy, Treloar, Weightman and huge question marks over Beveridge early and Naughton ongoing. And we have been unable to capitalise on being in winning positions which I think is a huge symptom.
I admit some of my thoughts are a bit confusing and appreciate those for whom our issues are clearer. I just hope that Graeme Wright is one of those with a clear view because for each problem I see, there are several often competing potential solutions.
Finally, the case studies for staying the course are strong. Also the case studies for moving on a star player are strong too (Geelong won the flag after losing Ablett Jnr, so too with Hawthorn after losing the other best player in the game in Buddy, and the Pies with Grundy and Treloar. Geelong after trading out Tim Kelly. I’m sure there are other examples.)
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