Talking Carlton Index Lochie O'Brien Kerryn Harrington Lochie O'Brien Kerryn Harrington CFC Home CFC Membership CFC Shop CFC Fixture Blueseum
It is currently Tue Jun 17, 2025 3:04 am

All times are UTC + 10 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 164 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2025 2:06 pm 
Offline
Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:22 am
Posts: 2759
bondiblue wrote:
17th Premiership wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
17th Premiership wrote:
Love the passion on here!
I think there are a lot of valid views and part of the problem is that, despite peoples’ “100%” confidence in their own opinion, there is ample evidence to argue a counter point.

FWIW, these are some of things that have me really hoping that Graeme Wright is clear eyed about what we need to keep/stop/start:

Game plan
We play like champions in the first quarter with run, dare, reasonably good skills and short kicks and passes (not bombs) into deep forward 50. But then we stop doing this. Why? Did Essendon***** do something remarkable to halt it or did they just up the pressure and contest and we just stopped. Either way, why? I do not believe it is fitness. This happened in the 2nd quarter!

Skills
Our skills look shite. However, I would bet that in any of the better teams, these players skills would be a lot better (maybe apart from Acres whose value has never been his skills… I’m convinced his goal from the boundary in the last was actually intended to be a centred ball to the top of the square that was, as usual, off target :grin: ).

Coaching
When Voss speaks during the week, I tend to nod along and think that most of what he says makes perfect sense. We are getting a lot of the game plan right. And yet, we keep stuffing up our F50 entries, running out of energy, seem to struggle with our footy IQ (it often looks like players are grinding through the protocols in their heads with or without the ball rather than just PLAYING like, say, the Pies or Cats or Lions seem to be doing). And it all seems so HARD for us. I was convinced we would change up our assistant coaches at the end of last season. We clearly need a better game day tactician and SOMETHING to improve our F50 entries. And btw, our F50 entries may be more about our leading patterns as much as it is about the actual kick into the forward line.

Off Field
FWIW, I tend to agree with most of what Keogh says on this. I feel like when we were a powerhouse, we were led by captains of industry keen to use their skills, networks etc to make Carlton great. Clearly, it was a different time but that was the intent. In the modern era, I feel like our Board members are made up more of people looking to use the football club to brandish their own status and/or improve their own businesses. Look at how Collingwood is doing it post-Eddie. And, btw, just on Collingwood- there is a lot we can learn from them. Heading into 2022, most people thought their list was crap and they’d finish well down the bottom half of the ladder. Everyone underestimated their off field changes and this had a measurable effect on their performance. Suddenly, that mediocre list was full of stars.

Our players
Which brings me finally to our players. The most important point here is that I agree with those who say we cannot afford to overpay our stars. If I was Graeme Wright, I would be sitting them all down and letting them know they can choose to take a smallish haircut, or they can pursue opportunities elsewhere. I’m not saying we halve their salaries. But if they want to win premierships, we need to be able to spread the cash more.
On the other hand, I am not convinced that our ‘bottom six’ is as bad as many proclaim. As I said above, in a better team with a better system, I think their skills would look a lot better. Having said that, I would look to cut those who cannot keep up with the game plan - those with poor footy IQ. And those who are not ruthless competitors. I remember in 2023, one of the changes we made was to simplify the game plan which allowed everyone to ‘just play’. The result was great but once the rest of the competition worked us out over summer, that was no longer enough. I feel it’s a similar problem now. We need players who can think on their feet and can follow a game plan without getting all tied up in their minds. Many times, it’s the extra half a second hesitation that costs us, puts the next player in the chain under pressure, forces an error or causes us to miss an opportunity.

I’m not 100% sure whether we need a few small tweaks or a complete overhaul. I’m hoping the former, but fear it might be the latter. I do note there are plenty of examples of teams in similar 50/50 positions where it all seemed lost but it wasn’t (Richmond 2016, Brisbane half way through 2024, Melbourne 2020, Geelong 2006…).
We need to be able to sort this all out over the remaining rounds. Whether or not we can scrape into the finals, we need to be clear - and right - about what we do next. Because this… isn’t working. I just hope we pull the right (Wright?) rein!!


Talk about Food for Thought. Thanks 17th

I have enjoyed the passion and the posts. I sit in the Cazz BV Sidey camp. I don’t get too high or too low and look at our game and team with hope and belief we are not average, but have average moments, and the stars we have, have what’s required to be a star. I don’t think we are far off finding the right track.

Your post has been on my mind. I ask the same questions over and over.
I do think you hit a nerve which made me think, for half a second, then the answer slipped out of my head.
Half a second.

Only a couple points you made I’m finding difficult to digest

Off field, we are not much different now to the Pies with Eddie and today. Sycophants are everywhere and are part of the fabric of a strong footy club. Those networks of people put their hard earned cash into the club and that is their toy/ hobby. They do not have a negative influence on the onfield performance. Sayers drama is on another level, and I’m sure his actions were disruptive. That’s a one off.

The issue is Football Dept to me. They have not made great decisions, and the game plan might be obvious in first quarters but I don’t get the plan B we play thereafter.

Your point re bottom 6 is not clear. Are you referring to our bottom 6 of the list or bottom 6 in any given week, with the exception of the Geelong game when we had our lowest number of players on our injury list, and North and WCE when we had 7 out: our wins?

IMO the bottom 6 reflects on our depth. The ability to cover injured players. It’s wonderful to believe that if the Pies take approach on one soldier out another soldier in, should be the same at Carlton, but I don’t believe players in our best 23 who haven’t completed a preseason, or added to the team as last thought are the calibre we need for depth if we want to believe it’s one soldier out one soldier in to cover injury: White Evans OKeefe F.Young, Carroll, Campo.

Because of our lack of depth we have been forced to play out of form players and there’s no pressure on spots in the team. We all have our take on players who have been played with no form. Most of them we agree with. Our lack of depth has been exposed.

Then there’s weird stuff Harry and Elijah have disrupted the team.

We alll believe that iwhen the off field and on field are both humming our window is open.

Our season was derailed from the outset with Sayers drama, and started the season with 2 players suffering mental illness, one our CHF star, McKay, who played because our star FF, Curnow, was still out injured, and the other our most skilful HF/ mid , Elijah,missing. Add to that our AA candidate in the backline, Newman did his knee, our prized draftee who was going to give us the nimbleness we needed in the midfield, gid his ACL. On top of that we have had up to 13 players on the injury list.

I don’t want to hear about other teams covering injuries, I want to focus on the fact, Carlton can’t. Other than Effendopes and Tigers we have the worst injury list this year, AND our injury list has been worse thus far this year than last year.

We are not that far off. We have not had a perfect year on field. We’ve had too many things go wrong for on field success. You need that for success. And if we have a good run over the next 8-10 weeks we will be lucky to have depth to cover injuries in Finals.

The rest of this year, we need to show what we have got, not give up, and find out who isn’t skilled enough or fit enough to be on out list.


Thanks for your well thought out response Bondi. Much appreciated. Part of the challenge I believe we face is that there are several valid issues we face, some of them conflicting in terms of prescribing the solution and, as you highlight, of varying degree - I.e. even if everyone agrees on the problem, a tweak may fix it or that may not be enough.

To address some of your points…

I agree most
Boards have sycophants. The key is who is driving the Board. The fan-boys are likely to be intimidated or ‘easily convinced’ by their heroes and less likely to have the presence to ask penetrating questions that force deeper thought and responses. The big-notes might ask more robust questions but are doing so to promote or ‘big-note’ themselves, often at the expense of others or provoking a defensive rather than collaborative response. The best leaders I have seen, are very successful but also genuinely humble, genuinely curious, open in their exploration of problems and solutions.
I do think this can affect how we play but I also take your point that it is similar at most clubs.

I was referring to the bottom 6 players who play regularly at senior level. I’m not talking about the short pass that misses its target like Cerra, McGovern & Ollie did last week. That comes down to skill execution under pressure and fatigue (even though I realise most of those were not under pressure or fatigue but basic skill errors). That is not so much on the game plan.
But what is on the game plan is where and when we kick the ball, where and when various players run to either draw the ball or an opponent or just to provide options, how we exit a contest etc… I feel like too often, our play accumulates more and more pressure as we move the ball forward and we get through it when one of our stars pulls down a miraculous mark or makes a freakish play. Compared with, the hard work at the contest freeing us up and making each play down the line easier, with more margin for error. This is where the ‘bottom six’ would have more leeway to either kick to Williams in space and if the kick isn’t precise it doesn’t matter so much because Williams is free, or the kick to that bottom six player comes off because he is free or under less pressure or can see several options to help him. We did that mostly in the first quarter where our skills across the board looked much better. I’m simply proposing that, in another team, some of our maligned players would look better. (On the flip side, I also note that Paddy Dow, Jack Martin, Owies etc are not exactly setting the world on fire. While Kennedy is doing amazingly well, that was more about 2 players competing for one spot and I think Hewett is doing amazingly well so far too.)

I do think our Football Dept has a lot of improvement to work on. I link this to the game plan. For example, I’m not convinced we need to replace Voss (although I understand those who think we do). I think Voss would be in the top2 or 3 coaches in terms of leading a team into battle. Which isn’t nothing. But I do think he needs tactical support and the game plan needs work.

Finally, I agree that we’ve experienced massive trauma from Harry and Elijah not being fully available. And the injuries to Newman and Jagga. But I’m not sure that is worse than the Bulldogs with Jamarra, Bont, Darcy, Treloar, Weightman and huge question marks over Beveridge early and Naughton ongoing. And we have been unable to capitalise on being in winning positions which I think is a huge symptom.

I admit some of my thoughts are a bit confusing and appreciate those for whom our issues are clearer. I just hope that Graeme Wright is one of those with a clear view because for each problem I see, there are several often competing potential solutions.

Finally, the case studies for staying the course are strong. Also the case studies for moving on a star player are strong too (Geelong won the flag after losing Ablett Jnr, so too with Hawthorn after losing the other best player in the game in Buddy, and the Pies with Grundy and Treloar. Geelong after trading out Tim Kelly. I’m sure there are other examples.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGw-yHITH1g

Everyone should watch this. I follow this guy. His channel is not Carlton centric, he's football centric. I love him. I've posted links to Carlton related shows.

We have got what it takes, and I think its not so much the game plan being the issue because we start games well when we bring the speed and use the angles, but we fall back to bad habits. Are they ingrained? Shouldn't be, because in the preseason the angles and the run was soimilar to that first qtr vs Effendopes. Vossy tells us the boys fell away, or they didn't stay the course, but some don't get it, or want to believe it, and call Vossy's point a cop out. Its the players skills, and lack of composure, and at times panic that brings us undone. Hence, stay the course. Why can't we play that way for 4 quarters. This is the million dollar question.

When we bring speed, which we can, our game looks incredible. It's what happened in 2023 and early 2024. That win against the Lions round 1 when we were 41 points down at half time was all speed. We have it, somewhere in the pocket.

I forgot to mention the Bulldogs injury list. Truly amazing how they have covered, but that says more about their depth to me. They aren't consistent because of those injuries imo. They were my tip to win the flag. The can cover Jamarra. That's saying something.

Your last point re trading stars is powerful stuff to consider. Yeah, maybe that's what we need. OK, I'll let TDK go. :wink:


Thanks for the YouTube reference - always looking for good content!
You make some very persuasive arguments.
Ultimately, it’s like you say the million dollar question is why can’t we play that winning brand for 4qtrs??
Also, I think our lapse against Richmond has cost us severely. I reckon that if we’d gone on to win that comfortably as we should have, we would have won at least one of the next two against the Hawks and Bulldogs. And we’d be 7-6 instead of 5-8 at least. I also think that with our confidence up, and without the doom of fading final quarters on our minds, we would have then been a good chance against the Pies and I can’t imagine we would have dropped the Swans game either! But shoulda, woulda, coulda….


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2025 2:12 pm 
Offline
Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 25192
Location: Bondi Beach
Blue Vain wrote:
Traveller86 wrote:
Cazzesman wrote:
Effes wrote:
Carlton v Essendon*****

10 Tom De Koning (CARL)
7 Sam Walsh (CARL)
5 Jack Silvagni (CARL)
5 Nic Martin (ESS)
2 George Hewett (CARL)
1 Xavier Duursma (ESS)


I never gave TDK a vote. Beating up on a 36yr old didn't rate that highly for me. I expected nothing less. :lol: :lol:

Regards Cazzesman


He got beaten by Goldstein in quite a few contests, including the one at the start of the 3rd which led to the Guelfi goal.

His performance is being way overstated by all and sundry.


If you want to lay blame on the Guelfi goal, have a look at Setterfields easy access to the ball and the abysmal effort to chase of show any defensive effort whatsoever. Keep in mind Setterfield ended up being the 3rd highest rated player on the ground. De Koning was awarded BOG by both coaches. That's good enough for me. He did his job well. It's not his fault he was playing against an older player.
He can only perform to the best of his ability.


That's true, and good on TDK. I though he was an important player in the win.

For me, nothing to do with the Guelfi goal, I cant remember it TBH.

The point is, Trav and I, and many others didn't rate TDK so high, before the coaches votes were released, so it was a bit of a surprise. Its nothing to do with questioning what coaches thought, but looking for reasons why we may not have valued TDK as high as the coaches.

I haven't entered my votes in the MVP, but I think I'll remain honest and vote as to how I saw the game rather than copy what the coaches voted, retrospectively. We all have opinions. We share our perspective without trying to be disrespectful of the knowledge and perspective the coaches have regarding the TDK's performance that us mere mortals would naturally miss. What we learn is we are way out of our depth if they are right, or we are all right to vote as we see it.

Its not really a game of closest to the pin ie closest to the coaches votes, so I wont change my mind and go along with them. They have their reasons for their votes, and I have mine.

I will enter my MVPs now based on what I honestly thought how I saw it, because I had a couple players ahead of TDK. I'm always curious what you and others voted after the game. We're all different.

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2025 2:41 pm 
Offline
Craig Bradley
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:55 pm
Posts: 6510
bondiblue wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
Bondi
I think you are missing the point here or maybe I'm not explaining myself properly (I know this is usually the case).
I'll try again and I'm not trying to be sarcastic (nor was I before).

1. Voss prides us on having a contested game.
2. Voss also has no other choice as we lack both speed and skill to make space and drill targets. We know this because you see him try to change up the game plan to no avail.
3. Therefore we kick to packs, outnumbered players, handball or kick to players under pressure, miss targets, miss goals......etc more than most teams.
4. To clarify my thinking, kicking to packs and players with an opponent is what is classified as contested football.
5. Just as making space, hitting targets in the clear and moving the ball without resistance is uncontested football.
6. Constant contested football leads to fatigue and increases the risk of injury exponentially.
7. I also understand that football is an impact sport, that's why I played and that's why I watch it.
8. Many other teams have worked out faster more damaging transitions without contests and as a guess they would also have less injuries and therefore better depth. It's all a trickle down effect IMO.
9. So I am not advocating that we don't have contact as you loosely suggested, but I am advocating making it a whole lot easier than we have been. Because the two major issues we've had for over 12mths or longer is injury and fatigue, something has to give because it's not working. This is not a Voss issue IMO, this is a drafting issue and has been for years.
10. I agree that our mids are not the ones getting injured, but there is a massive difference between a ball up collision and a poor kick from a clearance to players moving at speed. So while they may not be the ones getting injured, others are. And I'd be comfortable to suggest that our half forward line and half back line has sustained the most injuries.

You speak of a plan B, we don't have one, because we don't have the players to have one IMO.
Yes we have great running players, but they are not lighting quick or damaging like running players in other teams.
But at the same time we need those running players, because we are the lowest scoring team per 50m entry in the comp.
This is not sustainable football and is the reason we are not in the top 8, I think we agree on this.
And as you said, bad kicking is bad football.
Bad football also produces contested football and most of the time that is our only defence or attack even, especially against the quicker teams.

So when I say contested football has its toll, this is what I am referring to.

I hope this explains my thoughts on this (probably not, it is quite long). :grin:

And didn't Smith also have a contested injury, I thought the opposition player pushed him or another Cartlon player into each other and he landed wrong as a result?
I tried to find the video but couldn't, there were a lot of TikTok vids but I don't do that.



Jaggas injury was in front of me. It was what looked knee to knee knock. Hardly a hit, and no one around me felt something bad happened. The bodies didn’t hit. Really weird. Ball was heading out …

I completely understand you Sidey. The way you pitched your questions were sarcastic imo hence my response with the same I said on previous post. I don’t mind as long as you dont mind.

I agree with your definition and your explanation. Bravo and thank you. I don’t find anything you post difficult to understand. I’m just being picky.

My point is that whilst I see we prefer to kick the ball to a pack instead of kicking to someone free, which is contested footy, I rarely see much of a contest which fatigues.

With this kick to a pack, usually along the line, The ball is either defended and punched back in space in direction it came from, or, oppo mark it, or we, rarely mark it, and, IF the ball falls into the pack all it takes is for the player with the ball to deliberately take the tackle (all clubs do it and imo one of the ugly parts of the game. Should be holding the ball, then watch the game seriously flow). There’s hardly any fatiguing going on. It’s a soft cocky way of killing the ball. Players get more fatigued chasing tail or running ti creative space than what we are doing in a pack. Child’s play.

Then….

Who gathered around the ball up? Rinse repeat, it’s the midfield group, and they aren’t getting injured or fatigued. These players have the stamina to play this kind of footy for 90% GT.

We are playing a shit brand of footy. Frustrates everybody watching game, even the impartial. It’s ugly footy Swans footy circa 2004. Lucky for Swans back then injury was on their side. Not for us.

We have failed to take advantage of the plethora of F50s entry and we have failed with set shots. We often hear our smalls are so fatigued from running they can’t get back to the feet of a KPF, and if they get a shot at goal, they are too fatigued. Running does fatigue a lot more than taking a tackle.

The skills of our 23rd 24th 25th etc has really fkd us up. Depth is the issue there. So we can’t play any Plan B because we lose our kicker, our midfield nimbleness and a key forward and we are fkd bc we are playing player 24, 25….we have used 36 friggin players this year. Most of the fill ins wouldn’t make the list if a lot of other clubs.

I’m not using our contested brand as the excuse. That’s all. I’d rather look at the most obvious reasons for our losses than making excuses about coach, run, fatigue…it’s depth, skills and forward craft. Losing is a disease. It spreads through the group and the symptom is a loss of confidence in players.

We could be 2 nd on the ladder if we kicked our easy set shots at goal, but we didn’t.

Ok, so I watched it on Kayo.
Q3 28:40
From a throw in, Hewett pushed Hugo Garcia towards him and he looks like he just clipped Jagga enough to upset his balance, then Macrae dropped on him as Jagga was falling with the ball in hand. Pretty low impact but still a contested injury, very unlucky.

Anaerobic or explosive work increases muscle fatigue more than aerobic.
It's not so much the actual contest that causes the fatigue, other than tackling and jumping, it's the flow on result of the contest.
i.e. Losing possession of the ball and players having to sprint back the other way to defend because of a kick to a pack or a missed target going forward or in F50.
This fatigue both anaerobic and aerobic is what causes errors in disposals, lack of self awareness during contact and resulting in an increase in injury risk.
Especially the said player making the error.
But we play this brand of football because of a talent issue as we've discussed.
I know you may disagree, but the more fatigued muscles get the more injury risk is increased.
Therefore the more contests required to move the ball, the greater the chance of injury to our players not just at the contest but also having to defend the turnover from it.
Anaerobic fatigue causes players to become slower, jump less height and lose power in tackles, bursts etc.

I agree our mids aren't getting as fatigued as others in the team, but they get more fatigued than other teams midfields and is the only explanation for our fade-outs, drop in skill and poor decision making as the game goes on. I'm pretty sure our contested and clearance stats would back that up if I looked into it, especially against faster teams.
I also think Keogh raised a good stat somewhere that our second possession post clearance is the worst in the league (or around there).
Fatigued players make these errors, through lack of running, decision making, power to break tackles or clear contests as well as players are drained from making leads and not getting the ball so they move less also, very uninspiring across the board.

I'm also not saying it's an excuse for where we are at either, but you can't not rule it out as contributing factor and I see one as a result or cause to the other.
Therefore I will also say, if we had better depth with more speed, IQ and skill then I doubt we'd play as much contested football as we do.
Nor would our forwards be so fatigued they couldn't get to the contests or more importantly, to space, making an easier target for the mids when going into F50.

Anyway, I agree on depth, skills, speed and IQ.
If we fix that we also fix the tiring contested style of game we have to play IMO.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2025 2:49 pm 
Offline
Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 25192
Location: Bondi Beach
17th Premiership wrote:

Thanks for the YouTube reference - always looking for good content!
You make some very persuasive arguments.
Ultimately, it’s like you say the million dollar question is why can’t we play that winning brand for 4qtrs??
Also, I think our lapse against Richmond has cost us severely. I reckon that if we’d gone on to win that comfortably as we should have, we would have won at least one of the next two against the Hawks and Bulldogs. And we’d be 7-6 instead of 5-8 at least. I also think that with our confidence up, and without the doom of fading final quarters on our minds, we would have then been a good chance against the Pies and I can’t imagine we would have dropped the Swans game either! But shoulda, woulda, coulda….


Glad you bought up that Richmond game.

That first half was what we showed in our intra club praccy games, the first half of the Saints praccy game, and the whole of the GWS praccy game. Our momentum stopped when, imo, webtook the foot off their throat at half time, took the win for granted, and couldn't fight back after we lost our momentum and game style. We proceeded to make fools of ourselves trying to fight back in a panic. We lost it, panic stricken, and with that came the vitriol of the fans and the media and we started to implode inhouse.

Going into that game we had 13 out injured to start the season. They ran out of puff in heavy conditions that suited the young Tigers, and TDK was beaten by BOG Nankervis.

In that game Harry looked lost, and following the game we lost Harry, were forced to play an underdone Charlie, who coincidently is still a shadow of his former athletic self, imo, disrupted our defense having beenforced to throw Silvagni forward to kick goals because Charlie couldnt kick straight, Mots couldnt kick straight, then SOS also missed set shots, then losing the game having won more stoppages clearances and having 20 more F50 entries.

WE were carrying underdone players Charlie, Acres, Walsh who we couldnt replace because of our lack of depth. Our injury list going into that game was 11. That was the beginning of the end.

I still expect us to rise up the ladder, but we need at least a 3/4 effort, if not a 4 quarter effort every week. The players know that.

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 164 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

All times are UTC + 10 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 41 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group