Its nice seeing the 'doomers' getting taken to task. Seems some are happy to bag club, coach and players and other posters but don't like getting it back. Downhill skiers?

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

Who are the 'doomers' on this thread BM? All I see is people who get it and people who don't.

BM, there are people in society who want change, reform, etc. And then there are the Neo-conservatives - those that used to be lefties but now accept anything the authorities foist upon them. Which one are you??

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!!!

After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F .........
Visit http://fromthemoshpit.com/

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

ME........?


kindest regards tommi

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that'siti'mnotchangingthistagain......!

That's all anyone sees here Doc, just on opposite sides of the fence dependent on your perception.

There's no guarantee that if we were out of debt, had a president and board who created a sustainable and profitable business model (which didn't involve alcohol, gambling or benevolence from rich mates), revolutionised AFL marketing to the point where we increased memberships by 50% over the next 3-5 years AND gave supporters unprecedented access to the club (in addition to 2-for-1 lunches at the Carlton Cafe on open training days) that ANY of this would translate onto the field. We could be the richest flunks in the league, we'd be saying our players are running around like billionaires instead of millionaires and we'd cop even more crap. Not saying that's a justification for not trying to improve in these areas, just commenting that there are two very distinct issues being discussed.

Who wants to support a powerful company over a powerful footy team? Go support BHP or something. Most people support a FOOTBALL team here, thus it's what happens ON the field that matter to them moreso than off-field. Most people aren't aspiring Trumps, they don't have (or at least appear to have) the business/marketing nouse to be able to crtitique an organisation at its structural levels.

This will forever be the conflict here until something changes, on either count. If we turn form around and start playing like a champion team rather than a team of champions (and I concede that this may take a new coach and/or staff), your forensic accounting reports on the Club off the field will be drowned out by the cheering of happy supporters about what's happening on the field - big wins, finals etc. While that doesn't happen and most supporters are disappointed, disenchanted, pissed off and looking for someone/something to blame, the more technical side of the argument (board, money, marketing, membership, business models, debt) will play out and have maximum volume and opportunity for audience.

As I've said numerous times, I don't deny there's probably better people for the presidency/board, but I'd rather focus on whats happening on the field and ask is there a better player for FP/CHB etc etc.

Businesshead supporters as board knockers see themselves as those who 'get it'

Football-focused supporters see themselves as those who 'get it'

In all fairness it's probably a bit of A & B on each end of the spectrum here - but in actuality none of us get it, the board don't get it and the player's don't get it.

Scotty I'd suggest what you've outlined is a perfect description of Elliott's Carlton.

while we were winning no one cared

and then the shit hit the fan


I'd prefer we look to avoid shit, fan and the hit

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Reform Tommi,

REFORM!!

Yes, but have you noticed that it's the clubs that run as strong businesses/organisations that are achieving sustained success on the field now? You just can't imagine clubs like West Coast, Adelaide, Collingwood... being mired in the poo like Melbourne, North Melbourne, the Dogs seem to be.

You don't have to take any kind of interest in off-field matters at all, but you do need to acknowledge that if your club isn't being run as a strong business, you won't be enjoying any kind of real onfield success.

The days of North Melbourne winning flags out of porta-cabins are long gone.

I'd like my kids to see Premierships like I did, but I don't think they will if our club doesn't have its shit together off-field. Hence, I care about the off-field stuff. But I enjoy the footy. Different emotions, both have a place.

Thanks Doc, you weren't rude by pointing me to the thesis I am always happy to improve my knowledge, I didn't read it all as it was a bit of a drawn out read, but it did reinforce the differences between business boards and sporting boards, are you able to give us some info on Craig Matherson ( who I assume is Bruce's son) and Ryan Trainor, this is the type of information that needs to get out into the main membership to help us make voting decisions come election times.

The problem that we have is that most of the people who stand for boards are not well known to the general membership, and when you mix that lack of knowledge with the apathy that most members have, you get a steady as she goes approach by the voters or a complete lack of interest, it seems to take disaster of the magnitude of the last membership uprising to get people interested.

It also appears that the lack of a opposition party for want of a better phrase, denies members any options that would stimulate a thought process.

Is it the board who is at fault for operating with a lack of accountability to the owners (members).

Is it the CEO who is at fault for not taking the reigns and managing the day to day operations of the business.

Is it the owners (members) who are at fault for not holding the board accountable for mistakes or mismanagement.

Or is it the system that is at fault for not having clear systems to allow a mainly uninformed and apathetic members to understand that they have control over who runs the club and that there can be options for them to exercise that control if required.

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We are the maybe blues

How about we strive for success on field AND off field. Is that too difficult a proposition?
I'm happy to support the club financially but if the club continually makes poor decisions off field and refuses to be a progressive and innovative organisation, I also have a right to take my money elsewhere.
As you said, I can go and support BHP (which is a ludicrous parrallel to draw) or I can put pressure on the club to get its act together and give me a reason to invest my money into it.
Which is better for CFC? Me giving up on the club or me taking an interest and expecting them to engage their potential members/sponsors to sell them a product worth investing in.
And by the way, winning games doesnt solve the problems. Yes the off field will be "drowned out by the cheering of happy supporters" but drowning something out doesnt repair it. I'd rather we get our act together and actually take advantage of the successful times. Is that too much to ask?

Contrary to your view above, I can also take an interest in the on field efforts and have expectations there as well. They're not mutually exclusive approaches.
If some posters like BM want to give the club 90 bucks a year and take what they're given, that's fine. If other posters want further involvement but require the club to display progressive and innovative behaviours first, I dont understand the problem.
We can push the club to get its act together or we can give up on it. Personally, I love the club and wont give up on it. However, I wont keep throwing money at an organisation that is falling behind its competitors and comparatively refuses to value its members/sponsors/supporters.
You can only be taken for granted so many times.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

:clap Really articulates my view.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!!!

After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F .........
Visit http://fromthemoshpit.com/

I would like to see a survey of why people buy their memberships
are they buying it to support the club or are they buying a ticket to a weekly show with a hope to be in the draw for the grand finale

Ask the people on a forum like this and they would say to support the club
Ask the 95% of others they would say it's the ticket they want

so if your show is rubbish people will not buy a ticket

Its like the chicken and egg stuff - Fix the off field and the on field picks up or is it fix the on field and the off field picks up - You could argue that for ever

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

BHP is not a ludicrous parallel if you're focused more on a boardroom than a footy field - heaps more successful at this point and seemingly a better place to invest your money. We're all here coz of footy, not boardrooms so it's understandable that all this talk doesn't compute with a large slice...doesn't mean they don't 'get it' though.

You've raised the most important point - both on-field and off-field need a rocket. If this is the acknowledgement, why so much conflict if both parties are right? Easy, it comes down to a matter of priority and importance. Some see the structure of the organisation as key to the onfield success and thus most in need of a shake up, whereas others see the game as paramount, guys on the field busting a gut, as it's been since Under 8s. If we change everything from an operational level, will it guarantee on-field success? No. If we start clicking on-field, start winning games/finals and get a premiership, will that bring in revenue, increase membership etc? Yes, but probably only to a point.

If you were only allowed to change one - (mostly) faceless board members and president, or coaches/players for success, which would you choose? Which is most important for the ultimate goal - on-field success - considering this is a FOOTBALL organisation? Some will say the cattle on the field, we must win premierships, that's what a footy club is desgined to do. Some will say change the operational structure, we need more money, money can buy everything in the end...which is or isn't the reason we're in dire straits in the first place?

There's valid points for both, hence no one has the ability to say the other doesn't 'get it' - it's all a matter of opinion, and more importantly a matter of perception. What are the boardknockers doing to make this known besides replacing their keyboards at a rate of knots? What opportunity is there for change? Are you making it clear you're not spending your money at the club and why? I'm curious to know what the processes are for the disgruntled supporters who see a flailing business with an archaic model which desperately needs a revamp. Do you talk to anyone about it or just steam off on here? I'm sure Doc speaks to some people. Is it just a case of keep bitching on here forever unless it gets changed by itself, or do you have ways and means (and exercise those ways and means) of letting it be known to the people who should know?

Here's a starter for Ryan Trainor -> http://ninetydays.com.au/people/ryan-trainor/

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Bruce's nephew son of don!

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That is true SB, to a point.

Richmond have proven though that you can build membership while still being pretty ordinary on field. Missed finals last year, lost 5 of their first 6 (?) this year, and are over 50,000 and putting us to shame. Look at what's happening there off-field, and you can see a club that's moving in the right direction.

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Mens sana in corpore sano.

Bring back the laurel wreath logo!!!

For a communist, you are mighty priggish.

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Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

From memory, they changed the constitution a few years back to allow him to stay on the Board longer. It seems he is untouchable.

And for those discussing the Collingwood comparison, Synbad is right. Collingwood is the biggest sporting club in Australia now, they are like the Manchester United of sport in Australia. And they do just about everything right. Gone are the days we'd laugh at and ridicule them. They now stand where every other club would like to be. And we are so far off the pace, it's not funny.

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Mens sana in corpore sano.

Bring back the laurel wreath logo!!!

BM never been a doomer but I mistakenly thought we were on the threshold of another golden era and it seems not so isnt it sensible for us to be questioning every aspect of the club from its president down

If you line up many of the posters on here who are making constructive criticisms - these are the posters who are amongst our best reasoned and constructive posters

For instance amongst others Dannyboy John M Moshe Doc Sherrin Blue Vain - dont always agree with them but always read for incisive comments - if all those people are lining up on these issues surely there is a problem

Even the ryan trainor thing - was odd dont run this year ie last year because we dont want to upset the applecart but run at the end of this year -if I want to run in 2013 - why dont I create a fuss this year and then in 2013 I will be endorsed by the board