That may be true as a statistic but I think that is more to do with unreasonable impatience by supporters meaning coaches who don't get a flag in that time have a limited career rather than proof that coaches who don't win a flag in five years are not up to it. I am 50/50 on Ratts and believe a loss in the elimination means we need to look elsewhere, but as Leigh Matthews has said, to win a flag you first need a very good collection of players. Ron Barrassi rates Len Smith as the father of modern footy but his team was dreadful. Tony Jewell coached a flag in his first or second year - is he a genius - I think not, so did Tony Joyce. Coaches have to get the most from the playing group. They have to make the team greater than the sum of their parts, and give their team that 1%, 5%, 10% tactical, motivational, self belief etc advantage.

People seem to think everything is about process. Maybe a lot is, but they are human beings so being a sharp people manager is really important. I think Eade is a fantastic coach. At both the Dogs and the Swans his teams overachieved. I think our list is clearly better than the dogs in 08/09/10. Yet they are seen as failing by not winning a flag. Coaches can make players the best they can be, and the team the best it can be, that's their job and how they should be judged. But they can't actually actually make players have more talent, they can just get the very best from that talent.

That is the judgement Ratts is facing. Has he got the very best from everyone on the list over his tenure. Is the team the best it can be. At this stage I'd say no, and if we lose on Sunday it would a resounding 'No'.

But he is a better coach now than when he started, and we will win on Sunday because we are a better side and have been for several years. We need to not have as our motto No Ambition. Too often we set the bar low and then say we only just missed if things don't work out. We should smash the Dons on the way to a prelim. A side with belief and solid systems would even with injuries.

If we are a ruckman down - don't whinge, invent a tactic from left field that throws the oppo and maybe makes a weakness a strength, remind Warnock what we gave up for him, how much dough he is on. He is on star wages, he needs to star. If he wants to be a #1 ruckman, then do it. Take Hille et al apart. How abouit rather than a brave loss with lots of excuses we have a brave win.

Ratts contract will take care of itself. He has several weeks to make it a nice long contract, or not. Proof is in the pudding, so bake a good one Ratts that is ripe right through September.

Hooray.
Thank-you Cazzesman.

While we have no key forwards that is exactly what we are. All premiership teams have key forwards - end of story.

Might find he'll be signed before the final to get rid of the distraction. Club's rapt with what he's done. Think they've made that very clear. From what I gather Ratts is close to agreeing to terms.

Why did you pick Woosha? Sides do that sometimes rebound suddenly, especially one's with a core of premiership players there plus adding the like of LeCras, Kennedy, Nic Nat, Shuey etc... over the last few years. More like they underachieved before, which would've lost Woosha his job except for his contract. You could've picked MM himself, who took 10 years to win a flag, Bomber, who took 8.

A finals loss should never come into it. Alot can cause a finals loss and it's just one game. The other 22 should have alot more to do with the coaches ability. Grass isn't always greener on the other side. He's made it obvious he can do the job.

Its all very well for posters to come on here and call people fickle or impatient but I have been on this site for 6 years now and been reading the same excuses from the same posters since then
I have been a supporter of Ratten but you have to face up to the facts we are not much better now than we were 2 years ago
He is struggling to fix the defence and the forward line struggles aganst the top sides

He has been handed a pretty good list of youngsters plus the best player in the comp there should have been greater improvement as far as I and concerned

I for the life of me cant figure out how a bloke can be in the best players in the twos for months on end and constantly get over looked Most of our games are lost at the selection table not by what happens in the game

Ratts needs a win this week

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

He can do the job Jim but not sure it is that obvious he does it better than lots of other coaches. I think losing a final does count, and losing three eliminations counts a lot as does falling away late in seasons. I think he has done well this year, and I think we will win easily this week, and I don't think that is a big deal, we should beat Essendon*. I also think our hierarchy have experienced too many years in the wilderness and are easily pleased. We will be a finals side for the next few years but will Ratts have us in the best position to make the next step. Either way, if we make the wrong decision our chance won't come again for a long time. This appointment is utterly critical. If Ratts gets 2 years and we mark time, then if we get another coach they might need 3 years to put their stamp on us, by which stage Juddy will be 32/3 and our other teams may have stormed passed us (as WCE seem to have this year).

No point appointing him now, seems ridiculous after the preseason talk about winning finals. When we start talking about this final not mattering, we are setting the groundwork for failure. It is huge and should be talked up by all at the club. We don't want the option of losing to be seen as part of a grand plan.

These are not facts. The fowardline has struggled against the best teams, but 3 of those games did not include Waite, our best key forward.

Not sure I can agree with that Sydney. We have come along way in two years...

- Scotland is playing career best footy
- Murphy has become A list
- Yarran has been moved to defence and is well on his way to becoming a star
- Henderson has found his home in the backline
- Robinson is arriving
- Garlett is arriving (a minor setback the last month)
- Jamison has become an inspirational leader
- Simpson gets better every year
- Gibbs is coming along nicely
- Duigan and Laidler were inspired recruiting
- Walker's dissatisfaction was handled well, and he is playing carrer best footy as a forward

A big part of a coaches job description is to get the best out of his players. The above would suggest that Ratts gets a big tick in that area.

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Number 17 - come on down!

QFT

We are a couple f KPP's "short" but thats not Rattens fault

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TC suffers from the social media illness - the death of respect and constructive discourse by keyboard.

We lose this week and we have gone nowhere in 2 years despite all the individual improvements

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Every year one or two players have a breakout year then the following year they regress. Of the 40 players on the list, how many have shown sustained development over at least 2 seasons ???

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Scott, things aren't as happy as they used to be down here at the unemployment office. Joblessness is no longer just for Philosophy majors - useful people are starting to feel the pinch.

Individual improvements are nice, but the head coach's primary job is to consistently win games towards delivering premierships. If player development is Ratten's niche then he should take up the role of a development coach.

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Scott, things aren't as happy as they used to be down here at the unemployment office. Joblessness is no longer just for Philosophy majors - useful people are starting to feel the pinch.

Ratts 4 years

10 wins finished 10th
13 wins finished 7th - bundled out first week
11 wins finished 8th - bundled out first week
14.5 wins finished 5th ?????? add the gold coast game it would have been 13.5


It is not a rate of improvement you would expect with the list of players at his disposal - it is treading water - He needs to win this week

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I don't understand your point about Gold Coast. Is it just to make Ratts look that little bit worse?

gold coast was a win mark it down just turn up - Replace that game with a second game against the Hawks or the Cats or even WC and the numbers don't look nearly as good. People are saying in any other year 14 wins is top 4 but in any other year you are not handed 4 points on a platter like this year

Our form against the top six sides is 1 & 6 -these are the sides we have to beat if we are to progress and at the moment the balance sheet is empty

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Your comparison was to our previous seasons. In each of those years we played the wooden spoon team as well so you should knock off those wins as well to keep your comparison fair. In fact this year we played each of the 4 bottom teams once only. That's unlikely to have been the case in the last 2 seasons.

Obviously results against poor teams aren't that relevant to the main argument which concerns our record against the teams we'll have to beat to win flags and here Ratten's record isn't too flash.

A few of our players choke in big games. Freeze in the big moments. Simpson kick on the full, Warnock's miss, Gibbs missing a couple against the hawks and jamo playing on, Garletts game against collingwood the second time when he kept hitting the post and the all the games we almost lost and some we did by being poor at converting on the opportunites our gameplan and tactics allowed them.

Ratts needs to get the right people in to help him try to get this out of our game or just ween out those that choke consistantly in the big moments. So far there is only a pattern with a few. The others - like judds miss in last years EF - are just things that happen.

You would hope the club will judge Ratts on a whole list of things and not just the results of one game. Especially a game where we are missing very good players.

It will take a couple of years to get results with a new coach so the club would really want to make sure they think it is the wise thing to do.

I personally would have signed him up for 2 years last week. Let him coach next year. If he fails to continure making inroads next season then look at other options. Paying him out a year wont kill us.

For now though we should all get behind Ratts and the team and see if as one united group ,supporters, management, coaches and team can really have an impact this final series.

I think if you were betting, you'd have to think Ratten is odds on to get renewed.

I think he's safe whether you like it or not.

And this year we have been more consistent than last year.
3.5 games more (and would have been 4.5 had Warnock kicked the goal v the cats)

11 wins last year
14.5 this year

That's an improvement of 3.5 wins over 22 games = 16%
Doesn't sound like treading water to me.
I'd take 16% every year, thanks very much. Particularly at the top end of the ladder.

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Number 17 - come on down!

Yep I thought SB did a good job of demolishing his own arguement.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06