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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:04 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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If he can just settle down when he has the dead ball a little bit and improve his decision making, he can be anything.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:31 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Yes, still needs to get value for his contested marks, either through making his handball better or being switched on so as not to be called to play because he has wandered off line..but going great guns

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:19 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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bluechampion wrote:
15 months ago a debate raged.

Was he a defender, or a forward?

Ratten was quite steadfast. He's a forward, he said... The masses were unhappy, as they remembered his work on Lloyd and couldn't understand why Ratten was so insistent. He's the fullback! Why can't you see? You foolish coach, you're killing him! We cannot develop players! We have no idea!

Turns out he's a forward.

Correct me if I'm wrong ...

Ratts said prior to last season that he thought he might be a forward. And then he played him as a tall defender. He played on Travis Cloke, Pav, Lynch and Ottens. His final 2 games of the year were against Lucas and then Cleve Hughes, wasn't it? He played well in defence, and his abilities in that regard saw him being tasked with the job of shutting down Petrie a few weeks ago. In fact, his defensive work has mostly involved playing as a mobile CHB rather than as a FB.

If I'm not imagining things, then how can it be said that Ratts was "so insistent" about playing him as a forward?

The now infamous Cloke incident occurred when Santy was required to follow Cloke around as a CHB. Where was the commitment to making him into a forward at that stage?

The problem was that Ratts wasn't saying anything positive until Santy forced his way back into the seniors through his performances in the Bullants. He didn't say anything earlier this year about where he saw Santy getting a game. Indeed, it looked as though the answer might have been Ireland. And the fact that he was being played as a ruckman in the Bullants didn't inspire confidence.

I'm glad that Ratts was willing to let bygones be bygones, and it's now clear that they have a mutually rewarding relationship. Some coaches can't let things go, so I am genuinely impressed. But the attempt to suggest that this is the natural denouement of a well-planned and counter-intuitive development strategy from Ratts is laughable at best.


Last edited by Indie on Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:21 pm 
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Robert Walls

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Indie, you've taken my post far too seriously.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:25 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Or maybe you've taken mine too seriously :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:06 am 
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Ken Hands
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I am pleased as punch for the big irish ... I had my doubts but someone who is prepared to work that hard can only be an inspiration for the young blokes in the team.

Still has a bit to do but I am starting to believe by the end of next year he will have moved up into the top 10 of our team.

Still get goosebumps thinking about Jimmy Stynes and after 5 years he started coming on in leaps and bounds ... still early to justify any comparisons but if he can be even half as good well we have a real prize on our hands.

Just really love his commitment, enthusiasm and professionalism.

Can only be good for the club.

Sign him for another 3 before he gets too expensive! Mark my words we sign him for 1 and the goldcoast will come a knocking .... Not that he would leave ... he is that loyal ... a true blue .... really starting to feel for him like I do the Juddernaught!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:50 am 
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Bruce Comben
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I would love to see Setanta stay in the forward line,with i think cloke and fev.
I think a very potent forward line and hard to match up on.. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
especially when finals are coming with hopefully Betts & either Garlett or Yarran mopping up around them mmmmmmmmmmm sounds good :grin:


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:23 am 
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Wayne Johnston
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http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/ ... 62,00.html

Quote:
O'hAilpin will soon be rewarded with a new two-year deal.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:41 am 
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Robert Walls
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Congratulations to setanta on the two year deal!

I'd like to say that I was always his biggest fan, but I'd be lying. So I just want to say that his contract is wonderful testamount to a player who ha really improved in leaps and bounds!


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:50 am 
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Harry Vallence

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I'd like to say that I've always been his biggest fan, but Steven King has managed to destroy the cachet of that claim. I reckon the long-running war over his merits has just been won, and it's great to be on the winning side :smoking:

That's not to say that his critics were totally wrong. He will be bundled off on a plane to Ireland at the end of the season, but he'll return after a well-deserved holiday with his family.


Last edited by Indie on Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:52 am 
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Ken Hunter

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..great news..!!.. ..have always thought he more of a fwd, though initially he showed good signs as a KPD, but that's more due to his athleticism, up fwd he has that plus his own natural attacking instinc.. ....and his contested marking this year has blossomed even further, into pack marks.. ..which is always a huge bonus for a kpp, especially in high pressure games..

..and love how Fev uses him to rattle the defenders..

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:16 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
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Indie wrote:
I'd like to say that I've always been his biggest fan, but Steven King has managed to destroy the cachet of that claim. I reckon the long-running war over his merits has just been won, and it's great to be on the winning side :smoking:

That's not to say that his critics were totally wrong. He will be bundled off on a plane to Ireland at the end of the season, but he'll return after a well-deserved holiday with his family.


No way Mav. Equal biggest fan with me. :thumbsup:

I was battling here on TC and you were battling at CSC. Then collectively....well our articulate history is there for the viewing in the archives. :wink:

Seriously, I have always ejoyed your posts and have always agreed with you that Setanta was going to make it in the big time. Forward or back. He's a supreme athlete who can only get better.

I'll never forget the day he came on in his first game when we were copping an absolute hiding at the hands of the Tigers, but Setanta would not be intimidated and took that mark and kicked his first goal. This kid I said at the time ..."has a bit of heart...and look at the size and agility of the kid; a 10 year player I reckon".

Congrats Setanta. You beauty.

Go get 'em today in Adelaide and strut your stuff.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:32 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Thought he really struggled yesterday - On a quality player in Cornes

Opposition are starting to take a good look at him and putting a decent defender on him and he is getting shown up a bit


We will see how he goes - got Melbourne this week should be an easy game to run into some form

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:06 pm 
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Trevor Keogh

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Really SB. The mere fact that he is attracting a quality defender is a huge win for the club and helps Fev out. In the past, Cornes would have been double teaming Fev. Santy took a solid pack mark, provided a contest and set up a couple of goals. I wouldn't have called that being shown up. I thought he was a good contributer without being a star.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:15 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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fjanyc wrote:
Really SB. The mere fact that he is attracting a quality defender is a huge win for the club and helps Fev out. In the past, Cornes would have been double teaming Fev. Santy took a solid pack mark, provided a contest and set up a couple of goals. I wouldn't have called that being shown up. I thought he was a good contributer without being a star.


Yes but others have attracted good defenders also and have been found out and now been banished

The true worth is not whether he is a permanent decoy or not is whether he can have a decent impact on the game- He has to be able to beat the quality defender from time to time

He has struggled a bit since the Fev knee no doubt about it

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:17 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:14 pm
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Sydney Blue wrote:
Thought he really struggled yesterday - On a quality player in Cornes

Opposition are starting to take a good look at him and putting a decent defender on him and he is getting shown up a bit


We will see how he goes - got Melbourne this week should be an easy game to run into some form


The fact he actually commands a decent defender is a start, unlike Cloke or Fisher.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:24 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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I'm glad to see that you're nailing your colours to the mast there SB. It's a bit like how Ratts' critics were lured out into the harsh light of day when we had a lull midseason. And you've been emboldened by Santy's injury at a time when he'd hit golden form. That's all good, though, because you otherwise you might have been able to beat a discreet retreat.

To suggest that other tall forwards have been able to command the attention of the best defenders just isn't so. Cloke might have "earned" the attention of Hodge in the last game last year, and in a preceding match he might have "earned" a duel with Patty Ryder, but I doubt those match-ups were ever seen by opposing coaches as lock-down roles. Hodge played 30m downfield of Cloke, mocking Cloke's attempts to drag him to the goal line and out of harm's way. Hodge dominated as an essentially loose defender. Ryder went a step further and ran forward into Essendon*'s F50 with Cloke trailing in his wake. Fish might well be regarded as a threat close to goal, but I figure that opposing coaches don't fear his forays between the arcs as he isn't particularly potent when he's more than 40m out from goal. His long-kicking for goal isn't strong, and he lobs his passes rather than firing them I50.

Had Santy been out of the side against Port and had Cloke played in his stead as the 2nd tall forward, then my guess is that Cornes would have played a much more freewheeling game. That's the game that suits Cornes, and he would have been far more able to cut off passes to Fev. Instead, he was often hard on Santy's tail to prevent Santy marking on the wing. To me, that was proof enough that Choco thought that Santy couldn't be allowed off the leash outside 50. And Santy showed why when he managed to fire in a 50m precision pass to Fev's advantage resulting in a Fev mark and goal. Not only can Santy gather possessions outside 50, he also uses his ability and kicking skills to create a potent threat from outside 50.

The problem for Santy against Port was that he was never going to be given a licence to hunt for marks I50 against Cornes. As Cornes is a highly effective counterattacking CHB, the coaches were never going to roll the dice in that way. And on the day, Walks looked as though he might benefit from a mismatch and that created another reason to keep him away from goals.

That's Santy's lot at the moment. For now, he'll be asked to drag top defenders out of the way rather than trying to beat them in the air I50. But when he has the benefit of taking a lesser defender, such as Lovett-Murray, he'll be given carte blanche to create mayhem. Let's see how that goes against a lowly-rated Melbourne defensive unit. The more he punishes the 3rd talls, the more he forces the opposition to send potentially their best tall to him, given that Fev will often be matched up by a fast 190cm player, and that allows the coaching box to play around with forward strategies.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:47 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
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Indie wrote:
I'm glad to see that you're nailing your colours to the mast there SB. It's a bit like how Ratts' critics were lured out into the harsh light of day when we had a lull midseason. And you've been emboldened by Santy's injury at a time when he'd hit golden form. That's all good, though, because you otherwise you might have been able to beat a discreet retreat.

To suggest that other tall forwards have been able to command the attention of the best defenders just isn't so. Cloke might have "earned" the attention of Hodge in the last game last year, and in a preceding match he might have "earned" a duel with Patty Ryder, but I doubt those match-ups were ever seen by opposing coaches as lock-down roles. Hodge played 30m downfield of Cloke, mocking Cloke's attempts to drag him to the goal line and out of harm's way. Hodge dominated as an essentially loose defender. Ryder went a step further and ran forward into Essendon*'s F50 with Cloke trailing in his wake. Fish might well be regarded as a threat close to goal, but I figure that opposing coaches don't fear his forays between the arcs as he isn't particularly potent when he's more than 40m out from goal. His long-kicking for goal isn't strong, and he lobs his passes rather than firing them I50.

Had Santy been out of the side against Port and had Cloke played in his stead as the 2nd tall forward, then my guess is that Cornes would have played a much more freewheeling game. That's the game that suits Cornes, and he would have been far more able to cut off passes to Fev. Instead, he was often hard on Santy's tail to prevent Santy marking on the wing. To me, that was proof enough that Choco thought that Santy couldn't be allowed off the leash outside 50. And Santy showed why when he managed to fire in a 50m precision pass to Fev's advantage resulting in a Fev mark and goal. Not only can Santy gather possessions outside 50, he also uses his ability and kicking skills to create a potent threat from outside 50.

The problem for Santy against Port was that he was never going to be given a licence to hunt for marks I50 against Cornes. As Cornes is a highly effective counterattacking CHB, the coaches were never going to roll the dice in that way. And on the day, Walks looked as though he might benefit from a mismatch and that created another reason to keep him away from goals.

That's Santy's lot at the moment. For now, he'll be asked to drag top defenders out of the way rather than trying to beat them in the air I50. But when he has the benefit of taking a lesser defender, such as Lovett-Murray, he'll be given carte blanche to create mayhem. Let's see how that goes against a lowly-rated Melbourne defensive unit. The more he punishes the 3rd talls, the more he forces the opposition to send potentially their best tall to him, given that Fev will often be matched up by a fast 190cm player, and that allows the coaching box to play around with forward strategies.


Great post Indie.

You obviously watch the game closely.

If things worked out with the last disposal to goal on the weekend, then Setanta would have ended with 4 extra goal assists. No doubt that he creates goals from his general play. He is becoming creative and clever. His disposal is very good by hand and foot.

I have no doubt that Setanta (the ex Hurley player) is ahead of Cloke and Fisher as a tall forward.
Cloke wasn't selected ahead of Setanta, he was a last minute change for the injured Hammer (the ex soccer player). Hammer was given to the last hour to prove his fitness.

Whilst Waite is out injured and Kreuzer in the ruck we really don't have a better option for the CHF position than Setanta. Oh yeah, we can also throw him back to defend if needed...you wouldn't dream of sending Cloke or Fisher back there.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:51 pm 
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Craig Bradley

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I am Carlos' biggest fan.
His numbers arnt great since coming back from his back injury but he is an important member of this team . Why

He commands a good defender
He can play forward or back which is huge these days
he can do amazing things that catch his opponents unawares. In the last quarter the ball was going out of bounds near the point post and he kicked it off the ground dribbling back to fev. brilliant piece of play.
He blocked his opponent from punching the ball away from fev on 2 occasions allowing Fev to be one on one with his direct opponent
Every team needs a phsycopath a player that intimidates the opposition. Carlos makes other guys play better simply by being out there
The fev loves it when carlos is down the forward line



I would like Santy to pick up in the stats department
He often runs to the wrong areas.
Also players dont spot him often enough
But some of his pack marks have been really good of late
He is a hard matchup


Go carlos


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:04 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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First thing first Clokes contribution to the game on the weekend was far better than Santy and just as you say Cloke would have been less effective against Cornes I would say in his current form Santy would have been even less effective in the role cloke played
the significant thing I did notice was that Santy was moved back into defence in the last and that was our best 1/4 up forward

there is no doubt he is being hampered by the injury and his form before it was getting better
As much as you all hate Cloke he was good on Sunday his ruckwork was rubbish but his work around the ground was very good

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