Still want to see the stats on this

I watched the first half of the Bulldogs / Saints game last night 9 points kicked 5 to the saints 4 to the doggies - All of their kick ins went short first option and all resulted in a turnover be it the second of third pass after the kick in - none went coast to coast


I don't think we are the only side who is struggling with this and seeing side very rarely miss goals when they play us we probably have had less real rime practice - Collingwood had plenty of chances to practices theres with 16 points and 3 OOB

I also noticed that the Saints move the ball around very similar to how we do the only difference is they don't shank kicks a lot

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Good post and good observation SB.

I agree that all teams have increased the forward pressure including the kick ins. It just isn't as easy as it was a decade ago with the kick ins. It's a part of the defensive game that is taken very seriously circa 2009.

Great point that our woeful kicking at goal gives the opposition a lot of practise in games and that our game plan, taking around the boundary fails like all other teams from bad disposal or bad decision making.

I think the Saints and Cats run a bit harder than our guys to present the next option, or rather options going forward. We are young and can improve in this area, but there's no doubt in my mind that pace and skill combo is a prerequisite for the modern game. An AFL player needs to have both to succeed and offer value to their team.

The defensive game of our players needs improvement too. Like the pressure and urgency of standing the mark and attacking the player with the ball. The idea is to close their space and limit thei time the oposition have to make claculated decisions.

The latter area is an easy one. It must however be a directive from the MC, because clearly our players' focus is not to stand the mark or attack the player with the ball.

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I agree BKB.

The claim that Thornton is not an attacking player imo is a myth.

His team mates do not create options as do the Saints and Cats. We don't run hard enough to create options. We're slow at making decisions...to kick the ball into play, to provide an option in a gap, to run hard to accept a handball to break the lines.

Sure part of the problem is structure and game plan, but at the end of the day, when one of our players has the ball, surely it is just common sense that a team mate has to run hard into some space to provide an option.

I don't think we play with enough intensity for the 4 quarters.

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It has nothing to do with Ratten planning for a short kick to the pocket. It has to do with the opposition being on top, using their defensive pressure all over the ground and then having the confidence to push us into our defensive half so the kicker has to find someone through 35 bodies. When Heath Shaw was kicking it to himself and running it up the ground, his 50 was practically clear because the Collingwood players were spreading and getting to their offensive positions and we were spreading too, spreading to try and catch them.

It's about work rate and having the confidence to back yourself. What we're seeing is a gameplan not being executed. Now, whether that will change with maturity and practice, or the need for a new gameplan, I don't think anyone here really knows.

It's been a problem for years, not just this year, I remember complaining about the same thing in 05!!

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I even notice when one of our players puts the ball on the ground in the goal square the other guy who is actually doing the kick in takes his time with a light jog to the goal square to pick the ball up.....From the time the guy with the ball puts it down and the actual kicker kicks the ball is probably 10-15 seconds by then we have no long option at all and we can do little else but kick short and try and work the ball through our defensive 50. Given our poor kicking skills this isn't going to work.

Surely for the time being at least - a better option is to get the ball outside 50 as soon as possible - from there Judd, Murphy, Gibbs etal have at least a break even chance of clearing the ball....

and this would change if we added pressure through kicking @#$%&! goals. We miss and miss and miss and doesn;t matter how good your strategies are, the opposition will play free flowing football because you do not hurt them going the other way!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

We have poor clearances from the F50 after a point and in general play. There is far too much handball across the full back and half back lines.
The Collingwood ruck run to the open side while the rest zone to the near side to dreag the defensive zone away as soon as they get posssession in the back line and their players know that he will be there.
Other teams use different players but most do something similar. A shortish kick to possession and a rapid switch as distinct to a kick to the fifty and back through the full back line and the switch after that.
Also we are better at man on man than zones.
When in doubt, a kick well outside the fifty is better intercepted than one twenty metres out.

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Carlton rank 15th for the effectiveness of its initial kick in at 90% effectiveness (AFL average is about 94%). We clear the defensive 50 with 15% of our kick outs (ranked 9th). We do kick short 67% of the time (ranked 3rd) and as posters have suggested we only kick in to ourself 8% of the time (ranked last).

In terms of our strike rate getting the ball inside 50, 27% of our kick-ins reach the forward 50 (ranked 10th) which is right on the AFL average. We score a goal from 8% of our kick ins (which equates to 15 goals for the season) which ranks us 8th in the comp, but below the AFL average of 9%.

Where I guess it probably looks worse for us, is that the opposition scores a goal from 4% of our kick ins which is the third worst result in the AFL. Also, I guess, that this doesn't take into account the speed of play by our players coming out of the kick-ins.

The more pressing issue perhaps is that our opposition enters their 50 from 36% of its kick-ins (2nd worst result in the AFL) and score a goal from almost 9% of its kick-ins (5th worst result).

Overall, not as bad as some posters are suggesting, but definitely something that the boys can work on at both ends of the ground.

Thanks for that Chief would be interested to know where you found the stats

It indicates our kick outs are at a level not to different to the overall level that the clubs is at

Seems we need to work more on countering the oppositions kicks ins that our own

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It's that we're so ineffective at defending opposition kick-ins which makes out kick-in strategy look so poor by comparison.

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This also proves we take the short option too often and it stifles our ability to move from the middle of the pack in efficiency.

The kicker is regularly too slow to set up and spot a target motoring into space, or lacks the confidence to send the ball out wide towards the arc.

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It's due to our defensive setups and mindset...Ratts needs to distinguish between when to attack and when to defend. When you want to move forward and score this is usually quite difficult to do if you do it defensively...

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Excellent work Chief. The time it takes for us to move the ball is IMO the primary reason for, how to put this politely, our shitness in this area. It is caused by having too few players who are good kicks and subsequently, a lack of confidence by the majority of players in their kicking ability. This results in time wasted while a designated kicker runs to get the ball after a point and time wasted when a player, who is not a great kick, is paralyzed by indecision because he does not have the confidence to move it quickly into the middle. Hence why we get a lot of long bombs to the wing because it's a safe option.

The upshot of all this is that the solution is relatively simple.
Get better at kicking the ball.

P.S Care to post some stats on the time it takes to move the ball on after marking it in the defensive 50 in comparison to the other 15 teams? I'd prefer it in graph form if you could be so kind .

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So we can reach the forward 50 from kick-ins more often than we actually clear defensive 50?
I bet not many other teams can do that!

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What the stat means is that we clear the defensive 50 with our kick-in kick on 15% of our kick outs (i.e. we kick long from kickouts). Normally if you can spot a long, uncontested target from the kickout you are more likely to get the ball down to your forward 50. Obviously this is more likely to occur if the opposition 'kicks a point from general play as opposed to a set shot because they don't have enough time to set up their defensive zone.

Last week, Gibbs gave a long option once for the entire game. The kick went to him. He ran it and kicked it inside 50. We didn't score a goal IIR but it took about 5 seconde to go from FB to CHF.
That's how you do it if possible.
I don't get to go too often (4 times this year) but it is blindingly obvious that our payers don't run to space enough. On TV you can't see this as the camera focusses on the ball.
We get sucked in to opening up spaces when they have the footy but when there is a turnover, the open spaces are by and large ignored in favour of a short handball to a player who isn't in a great position to recieve it. Then he has to flick it on and so on until we lose it or can manage a clearance. Meanwhile, players away from the contest don't run to space enough to create the 30-40 metre option. I watched it happen all night last week. On several occasions I pointed it out to Blue Beatle that a player was running away from the space when we had the footy instead of into it and at the player with possession.
It's U14 stuff.
Collingwood have a system where Shaw kicks it to himself quickly and runs directly towards his own man about twenty out and uses him as a screen to get rid of anyone chasing him. He often bounces it at that point and keeps going until he is pressured by the zone. By then he may be 40 metres from goal and the midfield is opening up as his players spread out.
They don't do it every time but it happens a lot.
As someone else pointed out above, we don't do it. Occasionally a kick to ourselves, run 15 and send it long to a contest. At least if the opposition marks the kick they are two kicks from goal. This is preferable to the rubbish we serve up inside fifty if the second kick is crap.

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Great observation Sombrero. The TV analogy is spot on as I use it everytime I go to work and discuss the game with the armchair critics.

I have been to about a dozen of our games this year and notice that our biggest problem is not necessarily the kick out but the second kick. We rarely use the first kick strategically so that the side of the ground used can be opened up by players prepared to bust a gut and run into space. We also appear to totally lack confidence when kicking in. Once upon a time (too long ago for many to remember) we would kick in to advantage, using a three on two to bring the ball to the ground and swoop the ball away....it doesn't happen anymore. Possession, or unfortunately for us attempted possession, is king in today's football.

We need to have the confidence to believe in ourselves, that we have the edge in 2 or 3 one on one contests, and to make sure that every so often that we give those players the opportunity to believe in themselves by delivering the ball to their advantage.

Very rarely do we ever use a blocker to screen the kicker as you have described with Heath Shaw. It is one thing to have someone who can deliver the ball, it is another having 21 other blokes knowing their role within the team.

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I get so frustrated with this aspect of our game. Other teams hold us up and put our kickers under pressure every week and yet we are happy to zone off the mark by metres. Is it lazy football or part of team plan?

Also agree with many saying that a) we do not seem to have strategies to create space and b) many players don't seem to work hard enough to get into space. Having said that, I regularly see players find space (often in the corridor) and get ignored or not seen. When ignored often looks like kicker is not prepared to take a risk to create. Definitely seem risk averse which is consistent with the coach's negative mindset. Not touting Knights as a better coach but I have commented several times this year to my Bomber mate that his boys play fearless football like they have the full confidence of the coach to play risky attacking football.

Final gripe ....... not sure who said it but someone asked for the stat on how long we take to move the ball on from the second kick on the hbf. How many times do we end up kicking with the man on the mark running at the kicker! Cough it up every time.

73% of TCers find The Chief's stats helpful; 46% find them confusing; and 9% wonder if he makes them up.

Cheers

Well I'm 99.9% sure that he's not making them up. He's also not going to make a graph for me either .

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