If we make the 8 then on the surface it will have been a successful season but it is more to do with what has happened this year tells us about the future.

Comparing us to 2003 is ridiculous. Even comparing us to 2007 is silly. We had a team that hated the coach and the next most senior coach at Carlton (Mitch) hated the coach. We were utterly disfunctional, and just starting to get things together off the field let alone on the field. Let's face it recruiting Judd makes 5 goals difference a game, add in 3 #1 picks several years into their careers, natural improvement you would expect from young players and a very talented but wayward full forward, and we would expect improvement. Under drafting no-one stays down forever. Sides naturally go up and down as the talent changes. The extent of the talent and the talent of the coach might create a premiership team. The coach is there to make the team better than the sum of its parts. Is Ratts doing that? Too often we are uninspired and seem to have stagefright. The coach needs to get us up not down. Our ball movement is excrutiating. Clarkson says ball movement is getting quicker and you move it quickly or fail, yet our plan appears to be to move it really slowly. Too ofetn our wins revolve around individual performances from Judd and Fev.

The process doesn't mean Ratts can't coach but it does mean Carlton as a club is still behind in our thinking. Is Lappin the best forward caoch in the business or a guy who the club wanted to retire and offered a sweetener. Maybe its the former and after an exacting search of all possible candidates around Australia we were lucky that the best assistant was at our club.

Ratts just sounds a bit out of his depth, he speaks in cliches. Some coaches do becasue they have contempt for the press, Ratts seems to do it because he has nothing deeper to say. He runs out stats and excuses. Maybe just tell us why he has prepared a side that wasn't up to play against the Woods and the Dons. Should have been given a contract till end of 2010 to give him a fair crack - if we were sure that he was the best available when we appointed him (and not just an ex Carlton guy in the right place at the right time) - and then assessed honestly. If we have got it wrong with our coach again, the first decade of the new millenium will indeed be a lost one. You need to have everything right to win a flag and if you don't the window shuts and may not open for ten years. Big responsibility, let's hope everyone has it right.

I'm not comparing the list as such, i'm pointing out the fact that the vast majority on those player lists at the time were absolute rubbish. As close back as 2007 the vast majority of the list were absolute rubbish.

You can't turn over a list in 2 years. In fact we still have a fair amount of rubbish on our list currently. Slowly but surely the rubbish will be replaced by new draftees or players traded for. Some will be rubbish, some will be gold.

But the point is, yes we have 3 number 1's + Judd and Fev but those number 1's are nowhere near a peak that they will hopefully have in their careers. We have a couple of important senior players horribly out of form and the rest could be good or they could be rubbish. Far too early to tell on most of them.

What i've seen in patches this year is absolute brilliance, in other patches absolute abomination. Consistency's not there from quarter to quarter let alone week to week. That happens.

Quite rightly Ratts is being pointed at, there are issues there no doubt, but nowhere near as bad as some are making out.

I think some posters are starting to sound like a broken record goin over and over again

But you havent seen a gameplan.

The brilliance is when we throw caution to the wind...

Usually its when its unstructured attack .

Or playing a totally 'snip' and underprepared Richmond...

We have rarely played well against organised footy teams.

Round 17 2009 Collingwood 10 goals against a team we thought we could beat...

at some point Judd and the numbers must either kick to or receive from players that are not Judd or Number 1's - and that's where the problem sets in.

I actually think many of our kids have come on. Bower, Betts, Kruise, Murph, Hammer, Santy, Army, Austin, JR, Jacobs, Waite, Browne, Jammo, Gibbs, and AJ have all come on in leaps and bounds this yea.

Simmo is Simmo

Judd is Judd

Carrots has been used better this year.

Houla is more defensive though he still hurts us when moved to the wing or defense (in my opinion)

Fev is still Fev

T-Bird is having a fine year

Scotland missed preseason but is struggling with the defensive side (any coach would demand it of him)

Stevens is struggling with the defensive side

Cloke has been disappointing but he may not make it as a CHF for the very reasons Collingwood traded him.

Warnock not played
Tex Not played

Johnson - I worry about this draft - weak body on body.

in that list above almost all the players are still kids, still below their peak and apart from 4 players all are our main players

Fev Judd Waite and T-Bird are the main players who are at their peak (maybe Simmo - so that makes 5). The rest have not peaked yet. Murph is still a couple of years away. Tex needs to stay injury free.

Stevens and Scotland (with Houla and Carrots I'd suggest) will not see the 17th. and I have never had either of them in our top 10 - both are too unaccountable and struggle with the modern game, (the same modern game Ratts may struggle with).

We are young, no matter how many number 1's you throw at me, they are young and not at their peak. We need a CHF, we need 2 more midfielders, we need a couple of HB flankers who can be defensive and deliver the ball exceptionally, we need more depth but we are improving and will continue to improve as the kids reach around 25 years. This list is better than what it was 2 years ago and in 2 more years will be far better than what it is now. Currently no matter who the coach, this is not a flag list, not even a top four list, not yet. We can get frustrated as hell (I know I do) with coaches, with players, with lack of effort or whatevers, but the truth is around 7th is about right - though I had hoped for a 5th finish (the best of the rest).

while Jamo has gone backwards restricted by injury

Would definitely dispute that aramari.

Jamo has definitely been restricted this year IMO and it's a credit to him that he's played as much as he has.

Jamo's an A grader when he's 100%.

Disagree about the players who've "come on in leaps and bounds"

Bower, Hammer, Setanta, Joseph are the big improvers - they've jumped up and made a big difference
Betts has made good strides forward, though his first 8 or so games were much better than the rest.
Austin, Kreuzer, Murphy has shown the improvement I expected
Jacobs has briefly looked a decent AFL ruckman which is a big improvement
Army and Browne have disappointed, while Jamo has gone backwards restricted by injury.
JR one step forward, 3/4 step backwards
Gibbs stagnated (or at least rate of improvment slowed significantly)

This is absolutely spot on.

But would you say his development has gone backwards budzy?

Obviously being injured would hamper your development, but to me Jamo is rare find that when fit, he is an A grader as you say.

I am on this site almost every day. I don't post very often but I enjoy reading everyone's views. Here is my take on things:

• We don't need the personal swiping at each other. I think we all love the club. If there is anyone who is a laurel and hardy type then its me. Although I'm not sure who is who exactly. Which one's the fat one?
  
• It's bloody hard to win a premiership. Everything needs to go right for you to win one. Injuries, coaching/development, recruiting. If we don't get everything right we won't win one during our premiership window.. (maybe 2011-2016) and we will be looking towards our next premiership window (god!! 2025 maybe?) for our next window of opportunity. There are posters on here who assume we will win a premiership and that a good coach might be the difference between 1 premiership or 3. I think that's a very optimistic view on things. I think we will be lucky to win just one premiership.. and that assumes we get everything right.
  
• I've also been frustrated too many times that we cant get the basics right. kicking in. Our stop start play. I hate watching Judd.. (and Murph) getting smashed every week. I was hoping to see some sort of pattern emerging or a structure of play, but I can't. Maybe its because I am such a football layman.
  
• It may be my perception only but I don't see our kids developing or stepping up as fast as those of other clubs. I don't know if it's recruiting, development or coaching but it bugs me. Maybe its just me, but it's frustrating.
  
• It irks me that we didn't go through the process to choose a coach. Or at least seem to. I don't know what went on inside the club. And then we have Rattens contract extended without no real return. Do we have the best coach? Look at Collingwood with their new coaching setup? They are thinking outside of the box. I think it will work for them as I rate Malthouse and Bucks very highly.
  
• Sticks needs to make way. He needs to find his replacement. There is no room for a president who is a symbol only. We need a business man, a symbolic leader, a marketing person, etc, etc all in one. And get out of the coaches box!!
  
• Our win/loss might be about right for where we are at. But it means nothing if its a not a step further up the ladder next year. Things have fallen our way a little this year. We have never been a team to judge ourselves on win/loss. We are Carlton. The only things we are judged on is premierships. Our win/loss ratio this year will mean nothing if its not a stepping stone to top four and a premiership in the next few years.