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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:27 am 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 pm
Posts: 3561
Melvey wrote:
frank dardew wrote:
We are a developing young list who needs more time - Our coach is developing and is a work in progress


GOD HELP US

and mohammed and buddha and alla

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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:48 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:03 pm
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Location: East Brunwick
Synbad wrote:
Swann has been trying to get some new blood in and it keeps being knocked on the head by Sticks and those on the board....


The AFL would be throwing plenty of cash at Swann to be the CEO of the West Sydney Franchise. If what you say is true wouldn't surprise me if he would take up the offer.


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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:10 pm 
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Rod McGregor

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:35 pm
Posts: 167
Virgin Blue wrote:
Russell - I really think he is making progress. Not all players make the grade overnight, some take time. He only had 15 last night but I thought he played well. Also is quick, hard, and can grab it competently overhead now. .


:donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk:

I was at the game on Friday night and i couldnt help hearing clueless carlton supporters praising JR for his efforts. I must have been watching a different game. Seeing him Live u get a real understanding of just how bad he is, he doesnt understand the game, he is big for nothing because he cant use his body, he's quick for nothing because he has never chased down anyone or broken the line with a bounce or 2 and his decision making is one of the worst at our club if not the worst. BUT YEAH I THINKING HE'S MAKING PROGRESS :screwy: :screwy: :screwy:


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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:12 pm 
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Rod McGregor

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:35 pm
Posts: 167
Melvey wrote:
Synbad wrote:
We are at a point where we need to employ the very best man available to coach us forward or we will lose ground and time.

Thats where were at...


Ideally who would be your best man?

BTW I'm hearing that Allan Richardson is a big chance for the Tigers job.


JAMES HIRD :thanks:


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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:26 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:03 pm
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Location: East Brunwick
Visy Park


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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:41 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Location: Back in reality
walkers a gun wrote:
Virgin Blue wrote:
Russell - I really think he is making progress. Not all players make the grade overnight, some take time. He only had 15 last night but I thought he played well. Also is quick, hard, and can grab it competently overhead now. .


:donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk: :donk:

I was at the game on Friday night and i couldnt help hearing clueless carlton supporters praising JR for his efforts. I must have been watching a different game. Seeing him Live u get a real understanding of just how bad he is, he doesnt understand the game, he is big for nothing because he cant use his body, he's quick for nothing because he has never chased down anyone or broken the line with a bounce or 2 and his decision making is one of the worst at our club if not the worst. BUT YEAH I THINKING HE'S MAKING PROGRESS :screwy: :screwy: :screwy:

You must be in la-la land, he was one of the few who really went after the ball when his team mates couldn't dispose of it properly. I watched a couple of pieces of play on the wing where he closed down about three opportunities for the Pies to stream into their forward half, in a row.

Jordy was far from the worst, and he has improved. You really must be in la-la land.

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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:17 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:52 pm
Posts: 2044
The list analysis in this thread is fairly accurate. Supporters, the board and the football department should be frightened by the fact that the Carlton Football Club 4 years into a rebuilding program, only has 17-20 players up to AFL standard. (AFL standard not "Top Four Standard") This is the last year where the list can be improved significantly before the draft is decimated by Gold Coast and West Sydney draft concessions. The writing is on the wall that this era of players will not share premiership success without an agressive draft/recruiting drive otherwise be prepared to accept bottom 4 mediocrity and another crack at rebuilding. These are the radical steps that need to be considered if the recruiting staff believe there is quality in the draft:

(1)- Trade Fevola for 2 high draft picks even 2 between 10 & 15.
Sacrifice 60 games in his body & 200 goals for 1 x quality 150 game flanker wingman who can kick & key
position player with potential.

(2)- Trade Eddie Betts for a top 20 pick that can garner a key position player. (Garlett will fill the Betts Breach)

(3)- Trade one of Jamison or Thornton for a top 20 pick if we believe (Austin can become a key defender) & recruit
an extractor who can kick.

(4)- Trade Bryce Gibbs for a top 6 pick if the club believes his lack of athleticism will hamper his development.


(5)- Trade Yarran for a pick between 10 & 20 if its apparent that his commitment will hamper his development.


Come of Carlton, push the boundaries of possibility, the writing is on the wall that waiting for the current list to develop is not an alternative because the list isn't as good as we thought it was


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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:21 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Just because of that Jezz, I'm doing my own assessment later on tonight. Absurd.

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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:21 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts: 15064
Michael Jezz wrote:
The list analysis in this thread is fairly accurate. Supporters, the board and the football department should be frightened by the fact that the Carlton Football Club 4 years into a rebuilding program, only has 17-20 players up to AFL standard. (AFL standard not "Top Four Standard") This is the last year where the list can be improved significantly before the draft is decimated by Gold Coast and West Sydney draft concessions. The writing is on the wall that this era of players will not share premiership success without an agressive draft/recruiting drive otherwise be prepared to accept bottom 4 mediocrity and another crack at rebuilding. These are the radical steps that need to be considered if the recruiting staff believe there is quality in the draft:

(1)- Trade Fevola for 2 high draft picks even 2 between 10 & 15.
Sacrifice 60 games in his body & 200 goals for 1 x quality 150 game flanker wingman who can kick & key
position player with potential.

(2)- Trade Eddie Betts for a top 20 pick that can garner a key position player. (Garlett will fill the Betts Breach)

(3)- Trade one of Jamison or Thornton for a top 20 pick if we believe (Austin can become a key defender) & recruit
an extractor who can kick.

(4)- Trade Bryce Gibbs for a top 6 pick if the club believes his lack of athleticism will hamper his development.


(5)- Trade Yarran for a pick between 10 & 20 if its apparent that his commitment will hamper his development.


Come of Carlton, push the boundaries of possibility, the writing is on the wall that waiting for the current list to develop is not an alternative because the list isn't as good as we thought it was

Some good ideas but the only problem is no clubs will give up draft picks, especially high ones this year and next year the only club with high draft picks will be GC17.


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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:39 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Location: afl.virtualsports.com.au
Michael Jezz wrote:
(3)- Trade one of Jamison or Thornton for a top 20 pick if we believe (Austin can become a key defender) & recruit


There are lots of things I disagree with regarding your post but for example you've got to look at what type of key defender they are.

You can't just say trade Jamo or Thornton if you believe Austin will make it.

Austin is more suited to the ball being kicked in long, reading the play and spoiling or marking.

Whereas Jamison is the complete opposite - he is best suited to a leading forward where he can use his speed and ability to time his spoil to clear the ball.

You have to look more closely at the type of defender or type of midfielder each player is.

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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:52 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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Posts: 8128
A defender with good closing speed is like gold. Jamo stays! ..with a pay rise!!! :thumbsup:

Eddie Betts is an important leader at the club. Must retain.

Gibbs and Yarran are too young and undeveloped to make a reasoned assessment of their future worth.

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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:09 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:01 pm
Posts: 2099
C'mon guys, we've finally got a gun father/son coming to us in a year or two. Jim Buckley's son - someone help with a christian name, please.

What a gun!

Please, don't tell me the rules have changed.


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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:39 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Posts: 4842
To reply to the sub-theme from page one of this thread - I think there is possibility that if we don't crash and burn then we won't see the need to become proactive on issues or acknowledge a problem if there is one.

We have already crashed and burned so I don't think there is a problem there for a while so it is business as usual just like it is for every club in the mid 1980s. :wink:

The nuance is that it is easier to believe that the AFL and the other clubs are making it difficult for us (because that's what other clubs do) than it is to believe we are making it difficult for ourselves by being lax.

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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:54 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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The extra 2 teams being added over the next few years will mean the talent pool has to spread further, meaning each clubs list will be diluted of top talent, so we must retain and protect our most talented assetts.

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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:39 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts: 15064
Blues Clues wrote:
C'mon guys, we've finally got a gun father/son coming to us in a year or two. Jim Buckley's son - someone help with a christian name, please.

What a gun!

Please, don't tell me the rules have changed.

I am pretty sure his name is Dylan.


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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:01 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Posts: 4842
budzy wrote:
The extra 2 teams being added over the next few years will mean the talent pool has to spread further, meaning each clubs list will be diluted of top talent, so we must retain and protect our most talented assetts.


What's the point if you don't have the back-up? People know why we have the draft but you are apparently only worth something after you are drafted. :?

I would have thought getting the appropriate amount of talent to the club would be more important this last year than getting all defensive, that's for next year and beyond.

Conservative recruiting catches up with you in times like this. Jezz is talking about wanting one of these deals to happen not all of them, surely? With that in mind, I think he has a point.

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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:06 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Posts: 4842
Blues Clues wrote:
C'mon guys, we've finally got a gun father/son coming to us in a year or two. Jim Buckley's son - someone help with a christian name, please.

What a gun!

Please, don't tell me the rules have changed.



How do you know he is a 'gun'? I get mixed messages regarding that.

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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:36 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Alrighty then: I've knocked up a list of 5 tiers.

Tier 1 players are invaluable to the side; each time on of these blokes goes down, our system of play will suffer (and has suffered). The tried and tested bunch, we'd be looking for serious value to give them up.

Tier 2 players are valued contributors, but their influence is questionable. The gap to tier 1 status varies; for some it's a question of talent, for others a question of application.

Tier 3 players are your foot soldiers and assorted others who come in, and play a role. Whether it be inexperience or similar short-comings to those in tier 2, they see regular opportunities.

Tier 4 players see limited opportunities; they're your project players and attempts at re-furbishing an old gem or two. The odd one might be a regular despite their lowly status because of holes in a playing list.

Tier 5 players are either on the way in, or on the way out; the well known who have fallen short, or the unknown who are yet to crawl.

Without further adieu:

Legend:
Current 22
Currently injured

Tier 1
--------------

Walker
Waite
Murphy
Gibbs
Judd
Fevola
Kreuzer
Bower
Jamison

Tier 2
--------------

Thornton
Betts
Simpson
Stevens
Grigg
Houlihan
Carrazzo
Scotland

Tier 3
--------------

Russell
Austin
Hampson
Browne
O'hAilpin
Wiggins
Warnock
Garlett
Joseph
Yarran

Tier 4
--------------

Robinson
Jacobs
Johnson
Hadley
Fisher
Anderson
Armfield
Cloke

Tier 5
--------------

Bentley
Edwards
Hill
Ellard
Bannister
Tiller
Hartlett
O'Keeffe
Pfeiffer
Bentick
Stanton

Tier 1 total - 9 (5 talls, 1 utility, 3 mids)
Tier 2 total - 8 (1 tall, 6 mids, 1 small)
Tier 3 total - 10 (4 talls, 1 utility, 4 mids, 1 small)
Tier 4 total - 8 (2 talls, 3 utilities, 3 mids)
Tier 5 total - 11 (1 tall, 5 utilities, 5 mids)

While the overall tier 4 & 5 current 22 figures aren't bad, it's really quite strange that we've got two tier 5 players running around when other options are available. I'm all for punishing players who don't tow the line, but eventually the tables have to turn for the try-hards who don't perform at the level required.

With good development, we will see some of these players shift up a tier, and others may get there through hard work. A lucky few might even shift a couple of tiers and really enhance their value.

We've been unlucky with some structural weaknesses in our list being well and truly exposed, as well as our tier 3 types missing large chunks of the season for various reasons, but the most important thing is that tier 5 number needs to go down, and go down fast.

Enjoy

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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:45 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:29 am
Posts: 6418
Location: Casa Da Carlton - The Place to Be
Michael Jezz wrote:
The list analysis in this thread is fairly accurate. Supporters, the board and the football department should be frightened by the fact that the Carlton Football Club 4 years into a rebuilding program, only has 17-20 players up to AFL standard. (AFL standard not "Top Four Standard") This is the last year where the list can be improved significantly before the draft is decimated by Gold Coast and West Sydney draft concessions. The writing is on the wall that this era of players will not share premiership success without an agressive draft/recruiting drive otherwise be prepared to accept bottom 4 mediocrity and another crack at rebuilding. These are the radical steps that need to be considered if the recruiting staff believe there is quality in the draft:

(1)- Trade Fevola for 2 high draft picks even 2 between 10 & 15.
Sacrifice 60 games in his body & 200 goals for 1 x quality 150 game flanker wingman who can kick & key
position player with potential.

(2)- Trade Eddie Betts for a top 20 pick that can garner a key position player. (Garlett will fill the Betts Breach)

(3)- Trade one of Jamison or Thornton for a top 20 pick if we believe (Austin can become a key defender) & recruit
an extractor who can kick.

(4)- Trade Bryce Gibbs for a top 6 pick if the club believes his lack of athleticism will hamper his development.


(5)- Trade Yarran for a pick between 10 & 20 if its apparent that his commitment will hamper his development.


Come of Carlton, push the boundaries of possibility, the writing is on the wall that waiting for the current list to develop is not an alternative because the list isn't as good as we thought it was



congratulations, for the most idiotic post i have ever seen on this forum, and i have seen some howlers.

you want to trade, fevola, betts, gibbs, yarren, jamison for a whopping 1 x top 5 pick, 3 x top 20 pick and two picks between 10 & 15.

so you are trading five players who have serious talent, for 5 players who could be nothing .... thank @#$%&! you arent anywhere near our recruitment team.

while we are at it, lets trade judd for pick 10

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 Post subject: Re: Where We're At
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:00 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:34 pm
Posts: 1223
Location: East Coburg
ScottSaunders wrote:
Michael Jezz wrote:
The list analysis in this thread is fairly accurate. Supporters, the board and the football department should be frightened by the fact that the Carlton Football Club 4 years into a rebuilding program, only has 17-20 players up to AFL standard. (AFL standard not "Top Four Standard") This is the last year where the list can be improved significantly before the draft is decimated by Gold Coast and West Sydney draft concessions. The writing is on the wall that this era of players will not share premiership success without an agressive draft/recruiting drive otherwise be prepared to accept bottom 4 mediocrity and another crack at rebuilding. These are the radical steps that need to be considered if the recruiting staff believe there is quality in the draft:

(1)- Trade Fevola for 2 high draft picks even 2 between 10 & 15.
Sacrifice 60 games in his body & 200 goals for 1 x quality 150 game flanker wingman who can kick & key
position player with potential.

(2)- Trade Eddie Betts for a top 20 pick that can garner a key position player. (Garlett will fill the Betts Breach)

(3)- Trade one of Jamison or Thornton for a top 20 pick if we believe (Austin can become a key defender) & recruit
an extractor who can kick.

(4)- Trade Bryce Gibbs for a top 6 pick if the club believes his lack of athleticism will hamper his development.


(5)- Trade Yarran for a pick between 10 & 20 if its apparent that his commitment will hamper his development.


Come of Carlton, push the boundaries of possibility, the writing is on the wall that waiting for the current list to develop is not an alternative because the list isn't as good as we thought it was



congratulations, for the most idiotic post i have ever seen on this forum, and i have seen some howlers.

you want to trade, fevola, betts, gibbs, yarren, jamison for a whopping 1 x top 5 pick, 3 x top 20 pick and two picks between 10 & 15.

so you are trading five players who have serious talent, for 5 players who could be nothing .... thank !@#$%& you arent anywhere near our recruitment team.

while we are at it, lets trade judd for pick 10



To be fair, there were a lot of "ifs" in regard to the club's beliefs Michael Jez's post.

Not that I agree with him.

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