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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:11 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Virgin Blue wrote:
While Ess are on the same number of wins, we can't hide from the fact they seem to have it all over us in on-one-one duels this year. And two of their top picks (Hurley, Gumby) haven't played in these games against us this year, which makes it all the more frightening.

Frightening?

They've played Skipworth who would struggle to get a game at Carlton.

Prismall fell into their lap after the Cats had to let him go for cap reasons.

Everything is rosy at Essendon*, yet they nearly dumped Lovett onto Geelong for off field reasons.

Carlton haven't had Yarran, Warnock and Walker up and running this year.

Why is there negativity about our upside compared to Essendon*'s?

Essendon* have some talented young players, but they are more dependent on Lloyd, Lucas and Fletcher to hold their club together (on and off the field) than their supporters and the media acknowledge.

What kind of base will Gumbleton have to fall back on with just 5 games under his belt?

Gumbleton has played fewer games than the fragile Warnock.

And footy fans say Warnock hasn't shown anything...

It's a huge step up to become the number one forward target overnight without Lloyd and Lucas there.

I don't know how Fevola has done it for so long without any support and stayed relatively sane.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:16 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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simonverbeek wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
The Freo game shows that the players have confidence in their abilities and structures to persist and persevere.



The Freo game showed that Freo are crap and that Carlton have Chris Judd playing in the number 5 guernsey.

It showed very little else.

Why does it matter that we have Judd and won?

Are the media talking down the Lions, Rich and Voss because they played the Cats' seconds?

Rich beating Ling would have been a different kettle of fish...


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:21 pm 
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Robert Walls

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Effes wrote:
The Essendon* team which beat the Swans on the weekend contained:

Stanton 23
Welsh 26
Winderlich 24
Lovett 26
Watson 24
Lucas 31
Lloyd 31
McPhee 26
Davey 25
Dyson 23
McVeigh 28
Slattery 23

.


Good post mate.

I'm happy about the Blues suddenly.

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Last edited by Wojee on Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:15 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Virgin Blue wrote:
Effes wrote:
The Essendon* team which beat the Swans on the weekend contained:

Stanton 23
Welsh 26
Winderlich 24
Lovett 26
Watson 24
Lucas 31
Lloyd 31
McPhee 26
Davey 25
Dyson 23
McVeigh 28
Slattery 23

.


Good post mate.

I'm happy about the Blues suddenly.


Forest for the trees VB. An honest assessment by Effes based on some actual facts not distortions of half truths and make believe. :thumbsup:

Regards Cazzesman

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Last edited by Wojee on Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:51 am, edited 5 times in total.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:43 pm 
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John Nicholls

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Posts: 9108
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Virgin Blue wrote:
Effes wrote:
The Essendon* team which beat the Swans on the weekend contained:

Stanton 23
Welsh 26
Winderlich 24
Lovett 26
Watson 24
Lucas 31
Lloyd 31
McPhee 26
Davey 25
Dyson 23
McVeigh 28
Slattery 23

.


Good post mate.

I'm happy about the Blues suddenly.


Majority of that list were drafted when we werent drafting for one reason or another.

Ive been saying all along that we will be a gun side when Gibbs, Murphy, Kreuser, Hampson, Betts, Bower, Warnoch, Browne, Yarran, Garlett, Jamo, Russ, Walker etc are all 23 -26 with 80 -150 games under their belts. 2013 i reckon.
Of course their is the a slight chance of a miracle flag before then but i doubt it. Until then enjoy the ups and downs of a developing side. There will be periods when we are "average".


Last edited by Wojee on Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:30 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Effes wrote:
Virgin Blue wrote:
I suppose one of the underlying reasons I started this thread was due to the fact some other teams with less top picks (Essendon*, Adelaide) seem to be quite noticeably ahead of us. I know it's not all about high picks, but I think everyone agrees they are a factor.


We are a fair way behind both teams when it comes to an experienced core of players - partly due to drafting/trading before 2002 and partly due to the draft penalties.

The Essendon* team which beat the Swans on the weekend contained:

Stanton 23
Welsh 26
Winderlich 24
Lovett 26
Watson 24
Lucas 31
Lloyd 31
McPhee 26
Davey 25
Dyson 23
McVeigh 28
Slattery 23

So they have a core of Lloyd/Lucas/Fletcher/Watson/Welsh/McVeigh/Davey/Winderlich/Lovett who SHOULD be in their prime (besides the first 3) based on their age.

Majority of our teams who have played this year are still babies. Judd/Fevola/Thornton/Carrazzo(injured a lot of the year)/Simpson/Houlihan. Stevens and Scotland out of the team.

Everyone goes on about #1 picks but they are still extremely inexperienced. So is most of the team...compare that with the scum's core group still running around.

That's what cheating the cap and neglecting recruiting does along with poor management of the club.


Great points as usual Effes.

I can't work out why everyone thinks Essendon* are ahead of us. We have loads more potential than they do. They have some good KP depth coming through, but not much in midfield depth and they still rely heavily on their experienced players. Lets see how those skinny running types go when Lloyd, Lucas, Fletcher etc are gone.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:54 pm 
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Craig Bradley

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Everyone doesn't think that at all, namely a couple.

I will say this again now, if we finish 5th i want Essendon* to finish 8th, if we finish 6th then Essendon* 7th. There is NO other team i want to play in this years finals than the dirty flower scum from Essendon*.

No other final will satisfy me nearly as much.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:34 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 11:58 pm
Posts: 4058
Location: South Yarra
Effes wrote:
Virgin Blue wrote:
I suppose one of the underlying reasons I started this thread was due to the fact some other teams with less top picks (Essendon*, Adelaide) seem to be quite noticeably ahead of us. I know it's not all about high picks, but I think everyone agrees they are a factor.


We are a fair way behind both teams when it comes to an experienced core of players - partly due to drafting/trading before 2002 and partly due to the draft penalties.

The Essendon* team which beat the Swans on the weekend contained:

Stanton 23
Welsh 26
Winderlich 24
Lovett 26
Watson 24
Lucas 31
Lloyd 31
McPhee 26
Davey 25
Dyson 23
McVeigh 28
Slattery 23

So they have a core of Lloyd/Lucas/Fletcher/Watson/Welsh/McVeigh/Davey/Winderlich/Lovett who SHOULD be in their prime (besides the first 3) based on their age.

Majority of our teams who have played this year are still babies. Judd/Fevola/Thornton/Carrazzo(injured a lot of the year)/Simpson/Houlihan. Stevens and Scotland out of the team.

Everyone goes on about #1 picks but they are still extremely inexperienced. So is most of the team...compare that with the scum's core group still running around.

That's what cheating the cap and neglecting recruiting does along with poor management of the club.


Jamison 23
Johnson 23
Hartlett 23
Thornton 25
Fisher 25
Houlihan 27
Betts 23
Carrazzo 25
Simpson 25
Judd 25
Fevola 28

One less player 23 and over. Ours aren't as good. Other than Judd and Fev there are no stars, Jamo, Thornton, Simpson, Betts and Carrazzo are B-graders only. Yes we have 5 handy over-23s (Stevens, Scotland, Walker, Waite, Setanta) missing.

3 of Essendon*'s last 4 "top 7" picks (Myers, Gumby, Hurley) haven't been factors yet, wait till they come good.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:54 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Effes wrote:
In regards to Adelaide, they are an example of a club who has drafted very well without top picks while already having a core of senior players. They have been able to prepare for the retirements of Mcleod/Goodwin/Edwards for 3-4 years. So they can gradually introduce the younger players like Vince, MacKay, Van Berlo. Also drafted very well in terms of KP forwards with Tippett and Walker. I posted in TalkingAFL some time ago that I think they could develop into a powerhouse because they have got depth in most areas and are well coached.

In that core is Mcleod/Thompson/Edwards/Goodwin/Bock/Rutten/Maric/Porplyzia/Stevens.

We haven't had this sort of core group for a long time...we have one now but it's very inexperienced and still has deficiencies (such as KP forwards)



but nothing to do with them coached to their strengths?

BTW Lucas missed a couple and they won....

Theyre not doing well cos they have 3 guys over 30... that should hurt them in the modern game.

Theyre doing well because theyre drilled and use the ball efficiently and share it around...

It amazing how much spin there is when there needs to be a cover up for lack of preperation.. cant kick.. cant run.. and cant move the ball after a point..

AMAZING...

all of a sudden its cos we have one or two younger players than everybody else that we cant do football basics..

lol

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:08 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Essendon* are a professional club you don't win 16 flags if you are not - I am not surprised they are developing along nicely. But unlike Carlton they haven't had to rebuild their club from the ground up . The five or so years Carlton spent tearing itself apart isn't going to be fixed with a fist full of dollars a couple No 1's and Judd .

It will take time , money and patience to place the club up with some of the more powerful units

Still need to get plenty right off field before we see the results on field

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:18 am 
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Ken Hands
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I'm not having a go at anyone at all, but how Essenscum is doing is not at all of interest to me. (Unless it is reading about a humiliating loss of theirs...). Yes, comparisons can be made, but they can be made against 15 other sides. Getting the best out of their players doesn't matter. I'm interested in the Blues, and getting the best out of us. Yes, they are rebuilding and doing better than expected (but then 13th was better than expected). We are also rebuilding, but from further back. It was only last year that we were facing a record losing streak! It's just that we have higher expectations.. Only natural - after all, we're Carlton.

We are a bit average at the moment.. We could and will be better. But average and 7th, beats the hell out of 15th and getting the odd surprise win. And later, in 6 weeks time when we play our first final in years, it will be better still. If we don't make the finals, there will be hell to pay, but I'm going to wait until we don't make the finals before posting about not making them (or at least try anyway).

Ah... only in sport can euphoria and frustration be so intertwined.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:24 am 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 6427
We have possibly the best player in the comp

Due to his effort mainly we got over the line against a pathetic team in Freo

The effort against Richmond was ordinary won again through Judds first half as well as Shaun Griggs peformance in the first half .

Fevola is the clubs greatest strength and weakness. He got us over the line yet still doesnt chase at times yet he is allowed to get away with it because Ratten knows that He is so reliant to kick goals.

Yes we have a few injuries .Most teams do but what disturbs me is the lack of leadership out there and what the coaching staff except apart from Judd

A case in point. Gibbs received the ball and CHB metres in the clear and he had plenty of time to dispose the ball. He took too long he was tackled by Nahas the ball spilled out and a Richmond guy ran in and kicked the goal. The umpire had blown his whistle but didnt call the advantage and Nahas took the free. Whilst this was going on Gibbs had picked himself up and had walked 2 metres or so. Just gave up chasing.
In another case Gibbs was running to mark a ball with a tiggies player one metre behind him. If Gibbs had run hard at the ball and not dropped his head the opposition player would not have been able to touch the ball. Gibbs did the opposite and the ball was punched away.


On both occasions the runner was not sent out let alone Gibbs taken off the ground to be told what he should have done and that the club doesnt want players not doing the footy basics.

that is unacceptable. Forget inexperience that is a backward step.

This aint a Bryce Gibbs bashing exercise. Its evidence that things are not being done properly.

Fevola should have been sent away from the club for a month after his effort against Essendon*.
It isnt right that he is playing for the club. I am sure that 9 goals would have posters saying the opposite but it doesnt teach him anything.

With some of Houlihan's efforts on the weekend its laughable he gets a game
THe club goes about things the wrong way.
I have said this for a long time. If we are too soft on what is excepted on the field in the long run we will be worse not better off.

The Swans game this weekend is an interesting one
We should win but the Swannies are a proud disciplined club well coached and coming off a loss.
Lose and we will be 8 and 9 because the way we are travelling I cant see us beating Collingwood.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:17 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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aramari wrote:
Effes wrote:
Virgin Blue wrote:
I suppose one of the underlying reasons I started this thread was due to the fact some other teams with less top picks (Essendon*, Adelaide) seem to be quite noticeably ahead of us. I know it's not all about high picks, but I think everyone agrees they are a factor.


We are a fair way behind both teams when it comes to an experienced core of players - partly due to drafting/trading before 2002 and partly due to the draft penalties.

The Essendon* team which beat the Swans on the weekend contained:

Stanton 23
Welsh 26
Winderlich 24
Lovett 26
Watson 24
Lucas 31
Lloyd 31
McPhee 26
Davey 25
Dyson 23
McVeigh 28
Slattery 23

So they have a core of Lloyd/Lucas/Fletcher/Watson/Welsh/McVeigh/Davey/Winderlich/Lovett who SHOULD be in their prime (besides the first 3) based on their age.

Majority of our teams who have played this year are still babies. Judd/Fevola/Thornton/Carrazzo(injured a lot of the year)/Simpson/Houlihan. Stevens and Scotland out of the team.

Everyone goes on about #1 picks but they are still extremely inexperienced. So is most of the team...compare that with the scum's core group still running around.

That's what cheating the cap and neglecting recruiting does along with poor management of the club.


Jamison 23
Johnson 23
Hartlett 23
Thornton 25
Fisher 25
Houlihan 27
Betts 23
Carrazzo 25
Simpson 25
Judd 25
Fevola 28

One less player 23 and over. Ours aren't as good. Other than Judd and Fev there are no stars, Jamo, Thornton, Simpson, Betts and Carrazzo are B-graders only. Yes we have 5 handy over-23s (Stevens, Scotland, Walker, Waite, Setanta) missing.

3 of Essendon*'s last 4 "top 7" picks (Myers, Gumby, Hurley) haven't been factors yet, wait till they come good.


That is my point though, our middle tier isn't as good because we never drafted one. The draft penalties + woeful drafting/trading in 2000/2001 means there isn't much quality there. The scum do have quality there because they've had their picks and have been able to add to them.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:02 am 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
Posts: 9108
Location: Nth Fitzroy
Effes wrote:

That is my point though, our middle tier isn't as good because we never drafted one. The draft penalties + woeful drafting/trading in 2000/2001 means there isn't much quality there. The scum do have quality there because they've had their picks and have been able to add to them.


Exactly ! When our young guns become the core of our team in their mid twenties we will be a top side.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:37 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:39 pm
Posts: 1002
Synbad wrote:

but nothing to do with them coached to their strengths?




Yet if we coach to our strengths (kick it to fev or give Judd the ball) we are one dimentional and our coach lacks vision. :donk:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:00 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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keogh wrote:
Lose and we will be 8 and 9 because the way we are travelling I cant see us beating Collingwood.


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Turn that frown upside down and you will be so much more fun at parties. :thumbsup:

Regards Cazzesman

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:54 am 
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formerly Army the Wonderkid
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I think we're most definitely flat, and statistically average, but i cant help but think we're still coming to terms with changing and different game plans. Our desire to foot pass out of defensive 50 with a 30-40 metre kick seems to have come unstuck so they're trying to run abit more with handball, looking more like other Clubs.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:14 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 18035
keogh wrote:
We have possibly the best player in the comp

Due to his effort mainly we got over the line against a pathetic team in Freo

The effort against Richmond was ordinary won again through Judds first half as well as Shaun Griggs peformance in the first half .

Fevola is the clubs greatest strength and weakness. He got us over the line yet still doesnt chase at times yet he is allowed to get away with it because Ratten knows that He is so reliant to kick goals.

Yes we have a few injuries .Most teams do but what disturbs me is the lack of leadership out there and what the coaching staff except apart from Judd

A case in point. Gibbs received the ball and CHB metres in the clear and he had plenty of time to dispose the ball. He took too long he was tackled by Nahas the ball spilled out and a Richmond guy ran in and kicked the goal. The umpire had blown his whistle but didnt call the advantage and Nahas took the free. Whilst this was going on Gibbs had picked himself up and had walked 2 metres or so. Just gave up chasing.
In another case Gibbs was running to mark a ball with a tiggies player one metre behind him. If Gibbs had run hard at the ball and not dropped his head the opposition player would not have been able to touch the ball. Gibbs did the opposite and the ball was punched away.


On both occasions the runner was not sent out let alone Gibbs taken off the ground to be told what he should have done and that the club doesnt want players not doing the footy basics.

that is unacceptable. Forget inexperience that is a backward step.

This aint a Bryce Gibbs bashing exercise. Its evidence that things are not being done properly.

Fevola should have been sent away from the club for a month after his effort against Essendon*.
It isnt right that he is playing for the club. I am sure that 9 goals would have posters saying the opposite but it doesnt teach him anything.

With some of Houlihan's efforts on the weekend its laughable he gets a game
THe club goes about things the wrong way.
I have said this for a long time. If we are too soft on what is excepted on the field in the long run we will be worse not better off.

The Swans game this weekend is an interesting one
We should win but the Swannies are a proud disciplined club well coached and coming off a loss.
Lose and we will be 8 and 9 because the way we are travelling I cant see us beating Collingwood.


I'm not following your point Keogh.
Yes we have arguably the best player in the comp and yes he's helped us over the line a couple of times but that's why we chased him. Not only did we chase him, we paid for him accordingly in draft picks and players.
Ablett has won his share of games off his own boot, so has Jonathan Brown, probably Dane Swan, Buddy Franklin and many others.
So what?
We're no different to any other team in that we rely on our experienced stars to step up when required.
The best team of the past 3 years (Geelong) has more than their share of developing players who make mistakes. So do Hawthorn, WB etc etc.
No one has a team of superstars that dont make mistakes. That's why you rely on your champions to carry you through when required.

Every team has deficiencies and problems. The way things are going around here, you'd think we were the only ones. :confused:

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:39 pm 
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Ken Hands

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:37 pm
Posts: 417
keogh wrote:
We have possibly the best player in the comp

Due to his effort mainly we got over the line against a pathetic team in Freo

The effort against Richmond was ordinary won again through Judds first half as well as Shaun Griggs peformance in the first half .

Fevola is the clubs greatest strength and weakness. He got us over the line yet still doesnt chase at times yet he is allowed to get away with it because Ratten knows that He is so reliant to kick goals.

Yes we have a few injuries .Most teams do but what disturbs me is the lack of leadership out there and what the coaching staff except apart from Judd

A case in point. Gibbs received the ball and CHB metres in the clear and he had plenty of time to dispose the ball. He took too long he was tackled by Nahas the ball spilled out and a Richmond guy ran in and kicked the goal. The umpire had blown his whistle but didnt call the advantage and Nahas took the free. Whilst this was going on Gibbs had picked himself up and had walked 2 metres or so. Just gave up chasing.
In another case Gibbs was running to mark a ball with a tiggies player one metre behind him. If Gibbs had run hard at the ball and not dropped his head the opposition player would not have been able to touch the ball. Gibbs did the opposite and the ball was punched away.


On both occasions the runner was not sent out let alone Gibbs taken off the ground to be told what he should have done and that the club doesnt want players not doing the footy basics.

that is unacceptable. Forget inexperience that is a backward step.

This aint a Bryce Gibbs bashing exercise. Its evidence that things are not being done properly.

Fevola should have been sent away from the club for a month after his effort against Essendon*.
It isnt right that he is playing for the club. I am sure that 9 goals would have posters saying the opposite but it doesnt teach him anything.

With some of Houlihan's efforts on the weekend its laughable he gets a game
THe club goes about things the wrong way.
I have said this for a long time. If we are too soft on what is excepted on the field in the long run we will be worse not better off.

The Swans game this weekend is an interesting one
We should win but the Swannies are a proud disciplined club well coached and coming off a loss.
Lose and we will be 8 and 9 because the way we are travelling I cant see us beating Collingwood.



You are over simplifying the reasons why we won the games against Freo and Richmond. You made no mention of our midfield including Carrots and Gibbs scoring some great goals from around 50 and some great muscle work from JR and Grigg etc.

Your comments regarding Gibbs game against the Tiggies is interesting but a little shallow, Why wasnt he dragged or directly spoken to by the runner as you say? well there are many resons why this might not happen during play, certainly too many to list but lets just say the runner was busy at the time.

These errors occur all game long by almost all players at some point and are best dealt with in proper one on one meetings during the review process post game, gone are the days when runners carry instructions on what players should have done better during the game.

Positional changes and team structures, opposition match ups and interchange take care of most game day messages.

The footy basics as you put it are being highlighted to our players during the course of every week, one only has to read Hird's recent article on what goes on in players mind during the week and game day to realise what pressure they are under to perform.

For a young playing group that is just beginning to string some games and more importantly some victories together after so many bad losses over recent years we are doing quite well.

I find it strange that people expect us to go from being the competitions whipping boys to top 4 material so quickly.

Last year we stopped the rot, remembering we had the greatest losing streak looming in front of us, this year we are very likely to make the finals - that in itself is very impressive, doing it on the back of the 1 of the youngest playing groups both in games played and age is simply put....................

A Fine Effort!!!!!

Lets get behind our club and players, their hard work deserves some praise :clap: :clap:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:01 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 6427
Cazzesman wrote:
keogh wrote:
Lose and we will be 8 and 9 because the way we are travelling I cant see us beating Collingwood.


Image

Turn that frown upside down and you will be so much more fun at parties. :thumbsup:

Regards Cazzesman




What happened when Steve Johnson, Stephen Milne, Nick Del Santo were disciplined :wink:

Your the clown for taking pot shots at posters Cazz
Still you must know more than me of course
Even about my own personality

By the way what smells funny

Clown shit

There you go Cazz
I am a real funster :lol:


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