Every team has their Simon Wiggins...

Exhibit a StKilda =Zac Dawson... Blake... Rapahel Clarke ... Clint Jones... Andrew McQualter...

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Somewhere between 104 and 105 is the truth....

They can't both be cop-outs!

Reckon it has to lean more toward it being the coach...a team needs direction to be successful....it needs to be co-ordinated and organised. Only an astute coaching panel can bring a successful team together.

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"Truth, for the tyrants, is the most terrible and cruel of all bindings; it is like an incandescent iron falling across their chests. And it is even more agonizing than hot iron, for that only burns the flesh, while truth burns its way into the soul"     — Lauro Aguirre

Still much easier for some to think we have a top list held back by a dud coach rather than face the fact that a number of our players still need to improve (potential is not the same as where they are at now:wink:) Some of our senior players unfortunately may not be up to it and will need to be replaced.

There also seems to be some confusion in the ranks of the disaffected. On the one hand Ratt's can't coach, but we lack depth, yet we are still in the eight and will probably stay there. Seems to a be a bit of the kiddies in the back seat going on about are we there yet

I'll certainly be much happier once we're out of the bottom four. We've been down here too long for my liking. If we can snare ourselves another priority pick in '09 we should hopefully have a core group of young players that will get us up into the eight. All we need is a little patience whilst the early draft picks, and whomever we pick at 1 or 2 this year, get some games under their belt. Every team needs to rebuild, and it's our turn to spend some time in the bottom of the ladder so we can get enough talent to get us into the top eight and to play finals! Baby steps. Bottom four for now. Then finals, then top four, then TOP 1!! It's a simple process and one we have to let unfold.

yes and no.... We're short a few tagging defensive midfielder who can utilise your better skilled mids. Who do we have? Bannister?

We're short of a 6 foot 5 tall defender who can take the third best tall. Who do we have? No one?

We're plugging gaps. We've got 18 good players and we're still short of a full AFL squad and a full good 22.

EDIT: And some of those 18 still have clear weaknesses. This could be bad coaching but it's also clearly a personal trait.

...and thats it exactly Just as I have argued in other Ratt's is a dud threads. Both the coach and the players need to improve. This should never have been a one or the other debate.

Just about everybody is plugging gaps molesy.
You show me the complete team.
Geelong dont have a ruckman or a forward...
They also lack pace and their miles ahead of everybody else as far as list talent goes.

But lets face it ... with a salary cap and a draft youre not going to realistically get 22 superstars running out there....
You have what you draft.
You develop what you draft.
You drill what you develop.
You play with what you have.

Mind you a gameplan is there to minimise your deficiencies and play to your strengths to the best of whatever you have.

Thats what footy is

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But your argument is massively flawed... but thats ok...

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Dunno why we need the draft, any spud will do as long as the structure is right

Well its always been about both...we de-list 7 or 8 players every year who we deem to be unfit to continue and we recruit another 7 ot 8 each year who we deem to be best suited to our team in the hope they will develop into good players.

So the player side is always being taken care of...but you have to make sure the guy taking care of it knows what he is doing and secondly that same guy should have the same if not greater scrutiny applied to him every year as the players have applied to them.

In our case it is even more so due to the ambiguity over the appointment of Ratts.

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"Truth, for the tyrants, is the most terrible and cruel of all bindings; it is like an incandescent iron falling across their chests. And it is even more agonizing than hot iron, for that only burns the flesh, while truth burns its way into the soul"     — Lauro Aguirre

C'mon, play the game. No one is saying 22 superstars are available or possible.

You have what you draft...

Yeah yeah yeah... There you go, providing comments that cant be argued against in support of claims that CAN be argued against. You cannot take any 22 and win a Premiership. You have to have a mix and a great game plan and a great coach. The best coach in the world wont be able to take any 22 and win the flag. Its not about any 22, its about OUR 22.

We have massive holes in the list. We're having to play some freako over excited kid just to fill a 22 as we've got 10 players who are no good. The Hadley experiment has failed. We have too many weaknesses - 2 AFL quality forwards only, 2 ruckmen who are too young, a soft midfield brigade and a short defence!

Im saying that not all deficiencies can be covered, particularly ours. We still trade 4th round picks for finished players from other clubs, whilst we're still 10 players short of a good list!

I think you need to read a few of your posts again Especially the ones about who you have named to replace Ratts as coach

Maybe that's a captaincy thing then.....

*ducks*

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Perhaps we needed some more years in the Bottom 4?

Yes but every club drafts from the same draft pool... and some clubs develop quicker than others,
Clubs like Collingwood Adelaide seem to bounce back quicker than a club thats been at the bottom for seven years with the best full forward in the league and the best player in the league and 3 number 1 picks etc etc ...

Now i wanna know why thaat is???

I refuse to believe it has aanything to do with drafting...but whats being done to maximise a players performance as an individual and within team styructures.
You cannot tell me that we cant kick out after as point cos we have deficiencies in the playing list...

You MUST look at things beyond the obvious.
The obvious is often too obvious to be the reality.... usually there are underlying problems...


Belisariums just responding to what you posted then retracted...

Cos i bothered to reply then realised you pulled it away.. and i hate doing stuff for nothing..



Belisarius its irellevant who i might like as a coach.... the issue is do we have the best coach available?
why not?
where is he taking us?
how is this team improving compared to other teams with lesser lists.?
and yes we have efficiencies like you guys state.... but so does everybody else... and its the coaches job to get the most out of the individuals and the the team as a whole...not mine...

i actually dont earn my living from carlton members forking out heaps to get bragging rights back...
the pratts doesnt pay it either

but like everybody else in this country... im accountable for my performances.... if i cant deliver i wont exist...

right???

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I completely agree with you that our kickouts are [REDACTED] and I hate how slow we deliver the ball from the defensive 10 to the D50.

But we're still coming from a massively long way back.

Thats the trap now isnt it?
We just have never moved along and developed players.
Its been that way for a long time.
We have early picks and we feel that if they arent Judds Murphys Gibbs Kreuzers they arent that great.
We go after players from other clubs sometimes we land a once in a generation player like Judd... often its a Saddington a Hadlee etc...

Im pretty sure we will go after another profile player...this year..

What is it with us.... are we shit talent spotters... shit developers or just dont understand what you have to do in the AFL to bring it all together???

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molesy.. the more you believe youre coming from a long way back.. the more you believe you have an excuse.
The quicker the club becomes accountable for today .. the quicker its going to begin to move forward.

Were coming from along way back cos were still living in the seventies.
There is alot around the club thats still seventies....

Unless we begin to judge performances on todays standards... we will continue to live in a time warp... where the coach and his coaching are.. where the president is.. and where the carlton swagger can be found...

This is 2009... and as a matter of fact you cant even be aiming at 2009... but at 2010 and beyond cos if wwere aiming at 2009 everybody else will be at 2010 and ahead of us.

Funny how the world gets faster and faster and faster... and you just have to be ahead of the game to keep your nose ahead.

Abit like driving in Athens.. if youre not faster than everybody else youll end up in the chaotic Athens traffic rumble and tumble

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Again, Synners, and keogh has been a strong advocate of this, we've not culled as hard as we've needed to.

but we're talking about issues of list management v. coaching v. recruiting. The failures of all do not fall at the feet oF ratten.

Look I get completely peeved watching us under some circumstances as well. Im not here to defend Ratten. my only intervention in this thread is to highlight that some cop-outs have historical merit.

We're coming from a long way back. We were easily the worst list in the comp and if it wasn't for the sheer mismanagement of Richmond, Melbourne and Freo, we'd look far worse than now.