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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:52 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Synbad, you are taking the easy way... and you wont get away with it.

Most of the current coaches have gone through a "process" - and were at the time seen as the best. You are able to write countless posts about Rattens mistakes and shortcomings, but you cant point to anybody who would be better. This is armchair coaching of the worst kind.

Critisising without alternatives is not credible. I have misgivings about some of Ratts' decisions, but I think you have gone all black on him. If you want to be credible you have to tell us who would be better.
This process stuff is rubbish and can be manipulated and is being manipulated - I have seen so many expensive failures and bad decisions in the corporate world which went through all the process's and ticked all the boxes. Too much process can actual lead you to the wrong decision - I have seen it more then once.

When it comes to stuff like this you must be able to demonstrate you know what is better or you cant carry on like this. Remember Pratt? He hired those who he thought were the best - his process was to research the issue himself and make the move. Do you think Swan went through a process? So stop sitting on the fence. Tell us who you would take instead and show us the reasons or ease up on Ratts.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:55 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Kaptain Kouta wrote:
Juddy&theKruezers wrote:

I agree and this season I'm only judging Ratten on the aim he set and that was finals. But you have to admit there are some major question marks over our match day strategies and his ability to inspire the players to perform consistently.

The obvious issue being the apparent lack of any strategy at all. Also we were a 5 minute here and a 5 minute there burst team last year and we still are. This is where Ratts has not shown anything at all so far and in the end this is what will determine his longevity.


If the benchmark is finals, then how about we leave any slagging of him until there's no possibility of making finals?

Let the season end, that's the only realistic way to assess whether Ratts has taken the team forward. We're not going to be able to make a realistic assessment until then.

Sure, talk about alternatives, possibilities etc before then, but don't be so keen to cremate Ratten now.


Isn't the whole purpose of this site to create forums within which we discuss all aspects of our club. If it isn't then please let us know what it is you want us to be doing..??? Saying g'morning's and gd evenings to each other every day...is that it???

I have not been slagging Ratts...I have been merely stating my opinion about him..and I will re-iterate its just my opinion...

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"Truth, for the tyrants, is the most terrible and cruel of all bindings; it is like an incandescent iron falling across their chests. And it is even more agonizing than hot iron, for that only burns the flesh, while truth burns its way into the soul"     — Lauro Aguirre


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:59 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Quote:
I have not been slagging Ratts...I have been merely stating my opinion about him..and I will re-iterate its just my opinion...


There is an old saying: What do opinions and arse holes have in common? Everyone has one......


Opinion is fine, but dont get upset when others don't agree and think that you and others are using Ratts as a scape goat - which some of us find unreasonable.

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Last edited by mikkey on Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:02 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Brett Ratten, Brett Ratten, Rah Rah Rah!!!


My post was half way through the second quarter and a release of anger. So let me reply to some of the posters that are oh so wise... just ask them.

Member for over 20 years, Caz, and haven't destroyed a membership yet. Go every week and absolutely love this club. I reckon I have a right to let off some steam. They were playing deploarable football against a team that has hardly won a game this year who was without their best player, the equivelent of removing Judd from our team. Did they deserve a spray. I reckon they did. Was Ratten coaching well? I'd say his coaching was pretty much [REDACTED] at the 10 minute mark of the second quarter. So Caz, if you want to have a crack at me for an impassioned spray about my club who were playing like an eastern suburbs div 3 side, go right ahead if it makes you feel superior. :thumbsup:

No I do not know that the players don't respect Ratten. That was my OPINION. MY OPINION was based on the way the players were playing. IN MY OPINION they were not playing for each other, for the jumper or for their coach. IN MY OPINION they were playing no one but themselves. self preservation football. Once again when I posted at the 10 minute mark of the 2nd 1/4, an angry comment but once again how I felt at the time.

The comments about did Ratten instruct the players to be second to the ball, kick to the opposition to do this and to do that are nothing short of stupid. Pretty sure no suggested this. Of course the mindset that players take into the game that causes them to be 2nd to the ball and not do the hard things is attributable to Ratten. Why??? Because quite simply the coach needs to be able to extract this desired effort and committment from his players. Malthouse with collingwood is perfect example. I would dare say that player for player they are barely in front of us in talent and perhaps a touch in front in terms of experience. Yet Malthouse has every single player committed to the cause and every damn player knows their role within the team structure. Can that be said of our side? No way. whose fault is that? The responsibility rests with one man alone. The head coach, Brett Ratten.

There is a culture at the club IN MY OPINION of jobs for the boys, hence the unneccessary contract extension for Ratten, and this is where my comment came of "we are the next Richmond". This comment now that the red mist has cleared is somewhat embarrassing and regrettable. However, the jobs for the boys opinion is held, and nothing you can say to me can change that.

Finally, to all those saying Ratten is young and just learning the caper, I find it very frustrating that we have put ourselves in this situation. In the 'real world' when a management position is available, do you put the traineeship kid in the job or do you go with the bloke that has been working as an assistant manager under a broad spectrum of other managers and is ready to step up, or even go to another company and recruit a great manager that has the runs on the board? I reckon Ratten is equivilent to the traineeship kid. sure he is learning on the job and may eventually work out how to do the job, but when you have an inexperienced staff, they need genuine knowledge and direction if they are going to eventually gel as a greta unit.

I really don't think Ratten is the right man.

Last night did little more than mask the issues because we came away with the win. I'm rapt that we could come back the way we did, but it is an indictment that we were in that position against 15th placed team without their best player.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:09 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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mikkey wrote:
Quote:
I have not been slagging Ratts...I have been merely stating my opinion about him..and I will re-iterate its just my opinion...


There is an old saying: What do opinions and arse holes have in common? Everyone has one......


Opinion is fine, but dont get upset when others don't agree and think that you and others are using Ratts as a scape goat - which some of us find unreasonable.


Why would I be upset? We both the support the same team and we both want from that team the same thing. If all roads lead to No.17 then fantastic, but having a difference of opinion as to whether they really all do lead to 17 seems to be upsetting you and it shouldnt.

Either it is something you would like to discuss or it isn't. If it is then jump on board and if not then... :razz:

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"Truth, for the tyrants, is the most terrible and cruel of all bindings; it is like an incandescent iron falling across their chests. And it is even more agonizing than hot iron, for that only burns the flesh, while truth burns its way into the soul"     — Lauro Aguirre


Last edited by Juddy&theKruezers on Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:11 pm 
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John Nicholls

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If Swann decides Ratts has to go i am pretty sure the contract wont get in the way.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:13 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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mikkey wrote:
Synbad, you are taking the easy way... and you wont get away with it.

Most of the current coaches have gone through a "process" - and were at the time seen as the best. You are able to write countless posts about Rattens mistakes and shortcomings, but you cant point to anybody who would be better. This is armchair coaching of the worst kind.

Critisising without alternatives is not credible. I have misgivings about some of Ratts' decisions, but I think you have gone all black on him. If you want to be credible you have to tell us who would be better.
This process stuff is rubbish and can be manipulated and is being manipulated - I have seen so many expensive failures and bad decisions in the corporate world which went through all the process's and ticked all the boxes. Too much process can actual lead you to the wrong decision - I have seen it more then once.

When it comes to stuff like this you must be able to demonstrate you know what is better or you cant carry on like this. Remember Pratt? He hired those who he thought were the best - his process was to research the issue himself and make the move. Do you think Swan went through a process? So stop sitting on the fence. Tell us who you would take instead and show us the reasons or ease up on Ratts.



Look .. mikky... you wouldnt know what youre talking about...

What do you think Swann is thinking about the coaching situation right now???

That was number 1..

Number 2 is this..... Why do you think Swann is attempting to get a certain newie for the board and he is being stonewalled by the boys???

I might actually have more of an idea about whats going on than you do....

.... You can take that with a grain of salt....i dont care....

But why wont i" get away with wanting a process"?

A process is important in a 40 million dollar business... withing a billion dollar industry if you want to get ahead...

I know you dont believe in a process... but thats ok....

I write here cos my girlfriend would be sick of me telling her about it...

This is my pin cushion when it comes to footy....

And i post what i like... and i post things that im passionate about...

I dont give a @#$%&! what YOU or ANYBODY ELSE think about what i post...what i think... or how i am....

i thoughjt id share that with you...

Now why do YOU believe we dont need a process to find the best coach available..???

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:13 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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club29 wrote:
If Swann decides Ratts has to go i am pretty sure the contract wont get in the way.


Well, Swann hired him with Pratt's agreement and Swan extended his contract..... Funny how people here think Swann is a grenius, but Ratts is a total idiot and has NFI. :donk:

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Last edited by mikkey on Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:14 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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club29 wrote:
If Swann decides Ratts has to go i am pretty sure the contract wont get in the way.



The board might........... mightnt it???

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:15 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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mikkey wrote:
club29 wrote:
If Swann decides Ratts has to go i am pretty sure the contract wont get in the way.


Well, Swan hired him with Pratt's agreement and Swan extended his contract..... Funny how people here think Swan is a grenius, but Ratts is a total idiot and has NFI. :donk:



Ummmm look think what you think....the world isnt always as it seems...

Swann hired him sure... and would he have hired him to take over Collingwood if he was CEO there... and MAlthouse retired??? :donk:

Think about that........................................................................................

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:17 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Juddy&theKruezers wrote:
Kaptain Kouta wrote:

If the benchmark is finals, then how about we leave any slagging of him until there's no possibility of making finals?

Let the season end, that's the only realistic way to assess whether Ratts has taken the team forward. We're not going to be able to make a realistic assessment until then.

Sure, talk about alternatives, possibilities etc before then, but don't be so keen to cremate Ratten now.


Isn't the whole purpose of this site to create forums within which we discuss all aspects of our club. If it isn't then please let us know what it is you want us to be doing..??? Saying g'morning's and gd evenings to each other every day...is that it???

I have not been slagging Ratts...I have been merely stating my opinion about him..and I will re-iterate its just my opinion...


I wasn't saying you were specifically slagging Ratts. It's been pretty obvious that people have though.

Discussing "all aspects of our club" doesn't mean open slather on people like Ratts, JR, etc. I did say I think we should be discussing options and hypotheticals, but they've got to be realistic, and based on realistic things. Going in boots and all and "He's the worst coach in the AFL today" "He has no plan" "He doesn't have the respect of the players" is a ridiculous premise on which to start a "discussion".

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:20 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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'snip'

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.


Last edited by DownUnderChick on Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:22 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Posts: 4129
Synbad wrote:
mikkey wrote:
Synbad, you are taking the easy way... and you wont get away with it.

Most of the current coaches have gone through a "process" - and were at the time seen as the best. You are able to write countless posts about Rattens mistakes and shortcomings, but you cant point to anybody who would be better. This is armchair coaching of the worst kind.

Critisising without alternatives is not credible. I have misgivings about some of Ratts' decisions, but I think you have gone all black on him. If you want to be credible you have to tell us who would be better.
This process stuff is rubbish and can be manipulated and is being manipulated - I have seen so many expensive failures and bad decisions in the corporate world which went through all the process's and ticked all the boxes. Too much process can actual lead you to the wrong decision - I have seen it more then once.

When it comes to stuff like this you must be able to demonstrate you know what is better or you cant carry on like this. Remember Pratt? He hired those who he thought were the best - his process was to research the issue himself and make the move. Do you think Swan went through a process? So stop sitting on the fence. Tell us who you would take instead and show us the reasons or ease up on Ratts.



Look .. mikky... you wouldnt know what youre talking about...

What do you think Swann is thinking about the coaching situation right now???

That was number 1..

Number 2 is this..... Why do you think Swann is attempting to get a certain newie for the board and he is being stonewalled by the boys???

I might actually have more of an idea about whats going on than you do....

.... You can take that with a grain of salt....i dont care....

But why wont i" get away with wanting a process"?

A process is important in a 40 million dollar business... withing a billion dollar industry if you want to get ahead...

I know you dont believe in a process... but thats ok....

I write here cos my girlfriend would be sick of me telling her about it...

This is my pin cushion when it comes to footy....

And i post what i like... and i post things that im passionate about...

I dont give a !@#$%& what YOU or ANYBODY ELSE think about what i post...what i think... or how i am....

i thoughjt id share that with you...

Now why do YOU believe we dont need a process to find the best coach available..???




Well, thats dandy. Swan extended Ratts contract but wants to get rid of him.....

Process is fine to a certain degree, but not in order to hide behind it. I asked you who you would hire instead - you must be able to tell which current coach is better then Ratts and why.

It is unfair to bash Ratts like this and not tell us who would be better.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:22 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Quote:
'snip'


Ah, Synners.....you know that's not what I'm saying.

(Besides, I have to be nice to you, I just found out today my coffee dealer shut up shop last week, and I have to find another.... :wink: )

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Last edited by DownUnderChick on Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:25 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Kaptain Kouta wrote:
Discussing "all aspects of our club" doesn't mean open slather on people like Ratts, JR, etc. I did say I think we should be discussing options and hypotheticals, but they've got to be realistic, and based on realistic things. Going in boots and all and "He's the worst coach in the AFL today" "He has no plan" "He doesn't have the respect of the players" is a ridiculous premise on which to start a "discussion".


Agreed. However, over the top comments will always work there way into threads but I have said if Ratts meets his target of finals (which is the bench mark he set pre season) then fine...he goes around again in 2010 but IMO I have not yet seen the qualities/signs in his match day running of the team to make me believe he is the man.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:25 pm 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
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mikkey wrote:
club29 wrote:
If Swann decides Ratts has to go i am pretty sure the contract wont get in the way.


Well, Swann hired him with Pratt's agreement and Swan extended his contract..... Funny how people here think Swann is a grenius, but Ratts is a total idiot and has NFI. :donk:


You got me wrong there Mike. I am all for Ratts. I was just pointing out that some go on about how the so called " boys club" have us in the sh1t because they extended his contract when really the contract wont get in the way.
Ratts is going nowhere. We should all get behind him and team and give them all the support we can. Trying to change things up every two years is only going to unsettle us and we will be constantly chasing our tails IMO.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:26 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Yes again supposeing Swann was at say a professional outfit like Adelaide im pretty sure he would have made Ratts captain... then about 6 weeks into an unremarkable coaching stint of a 2 year contract he would have extended it by another 2... :thumbsup:

You continue on clutching to straws...

There are bigger powers at work at Carlton than Swann...

Tell me... before Pratt past on... im pretty sure Swann could have gone direct to him if there was a problem up the track with sayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy the coaching situation...and it would be fixed...

But who could Swann go to now to fix it???

:thumbsup:

But yes... i see how clearly youre looking at the bigger picture...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:27 pm 
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Horrie Clover

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mikkey wrote:
It is unfair to bash Ratts like this and not tell us who would be better.


A lot easier though. Copy and paste would save you a lot of time Synbad.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:27 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:27 am
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Kaptain Kouta wrote:
Synbad wrote:
'snip'


Ah, Synners.....you know that's not what I'm saying.

(Besides, I have to be nice to you, I just found out today my coffee dealer shut up shop last week, and I have to find another.... :wink: )

Noone closes shop if threyre a coffee roaster....unless theyre poor at it.. ... or dead....

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.


Last edited by DownUnderChick on Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:31 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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KK, name some folk who are slagging Ratts. Please.

What I see on this thread are a number of people with (to them) valid concerns. I haven't seen one poster taking a personal shot at Ratts. ie EVERYTHING has been about his performance in his current position at the club.

There's nothing more annoying on this board than the lynch mentality when someone questions an aspect of how the club is being run.

And I see comments a few pages prior in this thread about 'trucks being backed up' What... over a win against CLEARLY the worst team that ran out in the AFL this weekend. Sorry, am I being a Chicken little? pfft

Point scoring - the weakest form of argument.

For those who dispute the value of the 'process'.

The 'process' landed Hawthorn Clarkson (remember - they were lambasted in media circles for not rushing to sign Wallace).

The 'process' landed St Kilda Lyon, when every pundit had Longmire as a certainty for that position.

Personally, I would LOVE our club to have a proper process. If that turns up Ratts, fantastic.


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