..look, it's unfortunate that the big Setant' is currently our best CHF proposition, but if he can improve on friday night then why not..?.. ..i like his competetive mongrel, with proper fitness and now an opportunity to settle in one position he could very well become a good solid KPF.. ..and with such a great FF in fev, we don't need his equal at CHF..just another big presence.. ..and Santy did have some presence about him, more than any other used there before.. ..lookit our AFL quality options for CHF.. ..there's Santy scraping in but looking likely to improve.. ..there's Krooz, a second year ruck (with rucks a work in progress too).. ..and that's about it.. ..Waite next year i'd love to see played forward, but he's not strictly CHF (though off our list a strong contender for chf).. ..Waite would be lethal with a looser/roaming type role i reckon.. ..fish/cloke/wiggins/harts not afl chf standard.. .... ..we don't have much to choose from, and like him or hate him santy is currently our best choice.. ..and playing better than other options used previously.. ..so give credit where credits due, if ya wanna whinge than criticise why we have no bonafide CHF's on our list.. ..but stop lashing a player who's played the best footy in that position this season for us so far..

_________________
..if you can't be good, be good at it..

Actually Shaun Hampson said in a recent interview that all the big guys had been instructed to hand off to the mid-fielders as a first option...ie "give it to Gibbs" so as to speak...

Can we get a poll going? Maybe democratic process will stifle Sydney's opinion on this one.

Don't Re-sign
Re-sign for 1 year
Re-sign for 2 years

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

Wait till the end of the season and then make a decision.
A lot of things can happen between now and the end of the season and in Setanta's case a lot of things have changed from the start of the season till now. Do we need to rush?

With Santy its pretty obvious he can polarise opinions.

I would suggest his development or lack of it in the Pagan era put him back somewhat on what his obvious potential was at the time of recruitment.

Fact is he has not had a fixed role in the team for any decent length of time. He has played back, forward and in the ruck.

I would agree he is not a ruck - however would argue he hasn't been developed for that position.

I would agreee he is a potentially good KPP backmen, and that is surprising considering that again I have my doubts on how much development he was given in that role.

The problem with Santy as a backman in our current list, is that we actually have a decent few ahead of him. He is unlikely to get much time in that position due to that and history has shown us that he seems to have been picked for that role only when a "suitable" match up exists.

Its not unreasonable to expect that Ratts and the MC and whoever have an ongoing look at the list and try to assess where its at what we need etc etc. Perhaps giving Santy the chance as a forward option is not only due to minimal available options, but with a view to give him some development in that role.

I would like to see him been given consistent time in that role (form permitting), because basically throwing him from pillar to post, as has happened in the past, has not helped his development and nor has it help him realise his potential.

_________________
Cripps is the man

Not a bad thing to instruct the ruckmen to do, but you can't seriously suggest that such a rule should apply to one of the key forwards.

If Santy's long-kicking was as restricted as Fish's, then he should hand over responsibilities. But Santy has the ability to kick raking 50m kicks and has to be given licence to do so. In that regard, he's on par with Waite (and for your benefit SB I don't say that they are the same in all other areas). The fact that Gibbs made absolutely no attempt to call for the ball and that no runners went out to Santy after after he chose to kick it himself I50 suggests that he has that licence. It would be farcical if it were otherwise - castrating Santy by forcing him to be a non-rucking ruckman rather than a forward. My guess is that SB would like to see exactly that so he could portray him as an unnecessary 3rd ruckman.

The thing that was significant about Lyon's agreement that Carlton should persist with Santy is that he's been very dismissive about Santy recently. His comments last night are therefore notable for the fact that he has, no doubt through gritted teeth, been forced to revise his opinion. There's more than a little key position player snobbery about him. He thinks ruckmen are duds, and of course Santy has a ruckman's height and played in that role for most of 2007 as well as earlier this year. In his mind, the big guys shouldn't be allowed to do the things he did, and are just second rate imitators. Eventually, he'll have to wave the white flag on that one too. For now, he'll dismiss evidence such as the pass to Fev as flukes (ignoring a similar pass to Eddie in the Bulldogs game), but that won't be possible when the evidence mounts. But I enjoyed his backdown all the same.

as did I indie,

and that kick he mentions, have a look at it, long, direct and kicked to Fev's advantage (like one last week) but this time Fev tried to mark it falling backwards and it didn't stick - if it had it would have been seen for what it was, a an excellent kick to the forward's advantage

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I watched FC Mav and you read a lot more into the couple minutes they dedicated to Santy than I did
I have stated before that some of the touches he gets are good the issue I have there are not enough of them and the bad ones almost equal th good ones
Like the first and second kick he had at goal a good player kicks them
And I thought the kick to Fev wasnt that bad but it was good to see you could lip read from the back of Gibbs Head to see he wasn't calling for it that's an incredible gift you have there
You may have noticed inthe higlight package the strong contested mark he took on the lead they didn't show what happened next did they

Like I keep saying Friday was as good as it gets 6 effective disposals
1 goal 2 point 1 GA
You be happy with that and enjoy it why you can
I'm going to keep whinging about him until he either lifts his output or is moved on
And I will give you a promise that if he makes a significant contribution I will give him a rap

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Sick of seeing you flog the wrong stats: 1 goal, 1 behind, two goal assists (three scoring assists in total), would have had a second goal had he poached Murphy's shot like most players would. Also had a hand in another unbroken chain of possession for a score.

60% disposal efficiency, but zero clangers. Note that the behind would count as an ineffective kick.

Check pro-stats, not the Sun's live stats, as they actually review the tape to confirm.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

His first shot at goal come of hands so it would have been accredited as rushed
So 6 effective disposals as I said
A steller performance

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Much better than Simpson's first couple of games.

I'd imagine that you would say Fev is a good player, but we saw that even he can't be counted on to convert his chances, even from well within 50. On the other hand, Santy managed to kick one and hit Fev on the chest for another in the last quarter, and that says very good things about his ability to play under pressure.

As for Gibbs, you can't seriously think he would have been politely asking for the ball if there had been an edict that Santy had to hand off to him. He would have been waving wildly to ensure Santy saw him if that were so as that would mean that Santy couldn't raise SMIDSY defence. The players would have been well aware that calling with voice alone would be risky, especially after Banno couldn't hear the umpire calling play on from a few metres away. According to the players, the big crowd under the closed roof made it hard to hear anything much. I think you'll find if you have a look at the tapes of the recent games and the ones to come that Santy is under no orders to avoid kicking the ball I50. Both Lyon and you are going to have to get used to the fact that a major reason why Santy is playing high on the ground is that his spearing passes allow us to break up defensive zones. He isn't being selfish by spearing the ball I50 - the team benefits from one of his weapons, and in particular Fev would love it. I reckon that Santy will soon replace Hoops as the guy who makes Fev's eyes light up when he has the ball in hand.

As for divining Lyon's attitudes from 2 minutes on the FC, as a Sydneysider you don't have the dubious privilege of listening to Lyon on 3AW (unless you tune in on the web). If you had, you'd know he has little time for ruckmen and has talked about Santy in a way that is reminiscent of you. That's why I say that the change in tune is so significant.

2 of Setanta's ineffective kicks were long kicks to advantage at full forward. The first one Houlihan spoiled Judd's easy mark next to the goal post.

1 ineffective long handball was a creative piece of CHF play to Simmo's advantage. Simmo got a bad bounce and was taken high - kicked a goal from 40.

At CHF Setanta picks the ball up then is pummelled into the dirt by Dawson and couldn't get the HB away. Should have earned a free for in the back

Setanta marks on the flank - kicks to Grigg inside 50 who's held, the ball goes past where Betts takes a nice half volley and Carrazzo ends up snapping a nice goal

Murphy kicks it to the goal square where Setanta shepherded through for a goal. He might have attacked the ball to get the mark on the full but it was a difficult chance. Having left it to bounce he seemed to read the bounce well to leave it.

After a very clever contested mark on the wing, Setanta hesitated, then flubbed the kick to CHF leading to a turnover and eventually a Kosi goal. Only blatant error for the game?

Took another fine contested mark bet. wing and HF - then seeing forwards covered and the spare Saint in fron of Fev. Was slow to move it on, but didn't bang it long indiscriminately, ended up handballing to Grigg, who, rather than handballing to the open gibbs inboard, did kick without looking to an uncontested defensive mark.

Was out of the game in the 3rd but shepherded Banno's long shot through.

Last quarter only 2 touches, but they were sensational

The bullet pass to Fev was one of the passes of the season - no, it wasn't a fluke

And his goal...haven't seen Fisher or Cloke kick too many of those

He also effected some nice 1%ers in tackles and spoils.

My point is his "ineffectives" were mostly good play that didn't lead to clean Carlton possession. A friend of mine does stats for Champion Data - if the ball isn't a goal or a clean pass it's classed as ineffective. From what i saw there was 1 clanger kick and the rest of the game was pretty clean.

A pretty good game at CHF against the best defensive team in decades by a guy whose played a handful of games in the position. There's room for improvement as you'd expect.

But that's his best game in the position and he didn't kick a bag, so drop him

A ripper argument, and not used enough.

Could use it to justify the retention of just about anyone....except Ricky Mott

_________________
Formerly: Ackland the Wonderkid / Army the Wonderkid / quivering mess / molsey / Tony Lynn Fan Club

Also explains why 1AW is on a hiding to nothing with 90% of "supporters"....

_________________
Now stalking Carlton on Twitter and Facebook!

_________________
Formerly: Ackland the Wonderkid / Army the Wonderkid / quivering mess / molsey / Tony Lynn Fan Club

Setanta was a gun forward in hurling before he came to Australia and was voted their equivalent of the rising star before he left. IIRC he played in a losing grand final before departing for Melbourne.
Obviously, all through his junior days as a hurler it was identified and he was groomed to play as a forward and some of the youtube snippets i've seen he played that position well (not that I am an aficionado on hurling or anything like that!). I thought that the way hurling forwards need to lead up and get space from their direct opponent (who is usually right up their clacker!) could potentially be useful in Aussie Rules. I thought some of those instincts might hold Setanta in good stead as a forward in our game.

I remember some years ago that for one game Denis picked Carlos to play exclusively as a forward against the dawks IIRC (circa 2006/07). He was absolutely hopeless that night and I thought that perhaps being a natural forward in the game of hurling didn't exactly translate well to playing forward in AFL! However, maybe now that he is a few years further down the track in his AFL education he can utilise his hurling instincts as forward to greater use because I have found his performances in recent weeks (bar the game against the lions) as promising. If he can keep going and build on these performances we'd be made not to keep him around next year and beyond.

_________________
C'mon Blueboys!

IIRC Marciblue, he was also selected in the All-Ireland team as a right corner forward (similar to RFP).

There's no doubt he has the attacking instincts. In many ways, though, I think he's much more damaging when he plays in between the 2 50m arcs. He looks for direct options whereas all too often other players are happy to go outside the corridor in the hope that someone will eventually be open inside 50 for an easy mark if possession is retained (though usually the defence merely has time to fill in any possible holes). The stab kick to Fev was one of a number of instances this year when he's seen a split-second opportunity and gone for it. Even the kick that drew criticism from Garry Lyon when he didn't dish off a handball to Gibbs and instead kicked long and low to the pocket to Fev was as brilliant as it was ultimately unsuccessful.

Agree he is better between the arcs. There was a game 1-2 years back, and for a brief period he was around the wing/CHB and he had it on a string.

But even though it's good he has done some nice things of late, the reality is we won't have a true feel for Setanta until R22.

Hope he does well though bec he could be more than handy given his height etc.

If Waite comes back next year and Kruezer goes fwd as I expect he will, Setanta might be more a spare parts player like P.Dear. But that is fine.

_________________
It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it

Not only is he playing well.......but just who is he keeping out of the side?......that would be better value?

_________________
No ones listening till you make a mistake.