I've never said that Ratts isn't doing a good job BV, only that blaming Pagan for any of our current problems is flakey, and a convenient excuse should we fail.
I think we're playing too many kids at the moment to be competitive, especially against the better and more experienced teams, but we are at least two years away from being a serious contender anyway so maybe the strategy will ultimately prove successful.
My only real problem is that Ratten and the club talked up finals for this season and yet if we lose games and fail to make the 8 it will be because we have been playing kids and building for the future.
You can't have it both ways.

There aren't too many coaches who don't talk up Finals at the start of the season.

Especially a club that has travelled the road we have travelled.

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

Coaches and clubs don't even have to talk up their finals chances and the media still runs with that angle. Deledio during the week joked about Richmond still being able to make the finals "if we win every game for the rest of the season" and it was reported as "Richmond still have finals hopes".

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

True, but no one at Carlton has talked finals for years until '09 so when they did the supporters had raised expectations, and when things don't go as well as they should the disappointment and recriminations start to take hold.
From marketing and financial points of view the "they know we're coming" and finals talk have been a resounding success, but if we fail to make the 8 they will both be seen to be premature and ridiculous, we will still have the cash in the bank however.
I'm happy with the way we're travelling, but my expectations weren't as high as some.

I don't believe that the supporters had raised expectations because the coach believed that we should play finals this year. I think we had them because we ourselves believe it is the right time and an achievable aim.

And if we don't make the 8 I won't be saying the talk was premature, I'll be saying that it was what I expected, and will be hugely disappointed because of that, not because a slogan or Ratten told me so.

BV adding Judd into any side would improve it.. As would 3 number 1 picks who are not young men not kids.
Also, every side is improving.


Why look at Thompson and not look at Connolly?

I dont get why everyone points at Thompson... he did it... then again it can be argued he could have done more.

You cant superimpose your trekking ontop of someone elses.

Ratts hasnt performed to ost peoples expectations including peoples around the club....

He had us doing tutes and lectures going to school pre season and last season.
He had closed sessions working on 'something'.
Now he reckons he was on the wrong tram last week...
But i bet he will end up changing the over possessing also... and does that mean everything he has taught us in the last 2 years was a waste of time?


Bottom line is we need to be showing a pattern of play that has the potential of working with the players we have on the park....

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Fair point.
I only looked at Thompson and Lyon because they are coaching the 2 best teams in the game. Also, Thompson was mentioned in the above posts as some form of measuring stick.
By Connolly, I assume you mean Clarkson.
Lets look at his record. In his first year he took Hawthorn to 14th on the ladder. one game improvement on the previous year.
In his second year at the equivalent stage of the year to Rattens Carlton, Hawthorn were 11th on the ladder with a % of 85. They had just lost their 4th consecutive game.

Sounds similar to Thompson and Ratten doesn't it? Almost identical.
They went on to finish 11th on the ladder and 5th the following year.
The facts tell me that the successful coaches take more than 18 months to get the message across. It takes patience and a bit of inconsistency along the way but if the process is correct (training methods and development systems), the desired outcome has every opportunity to be achieved. I watch Rattens training methods and he is at the forefront of "game sense" drill initiation IMO. That gives the players every opportunity to learn the game. If they can't, then they're not worth persevering with anyway.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Unless he's talking about when Piglet was at Freo.

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

It's been done to death, but take a careful look at the players taken AFTER Russell in the '04 draft.
There are a few who have done well, most haven't, and the three players taken immediately after Hartlett have played one game in total.
But the real story of '04 is Eddie Betts at pick 3 in the PSD, who has now played 80+ games.
From the '05 draft Bower looks to be a better player than at least 5 of the players taken before him, Kennedy will prove a good player but was used to secure Judd.
3 of our first 4 selections in '06 played in the seniors last Saturday and Grigg would have also if not for injury.

Thompson coached a long time before extracting anything out of Geelong.
Could it be he wasted years anyway?

I think you cannot look at what others are doing BV and think it will automatically translate into a good side.
Every teams players and psyche are as individual as our very owb DNA.

I actually reckon Thompson has coached poorly at times and for stretches,
He did win a flag... it REALLY means jack shit to us cos its all unique.

What i try to look at is how players are improving. I see very little improvement in many of our players.
I see alot of 'sweeper upperers'.. i see alot of players scavenging for cheap kicks and moving it along short and slow.
I see blokes like Simmo who used to be instinctive become the man who holds the ball aloft to slow it down even more. (i think you should only go int this ode when youre wanting to stop an avelanche)
I see Bower taking less risks.
I see Setanta who is heart in mouth stuff but a dasher in the resies in the ruck!
I see alot of tall defensive types who cant create the genuine run out of defence.. reckon Simmo should play across half back but as a runner)
I see fast players tagging...
I see way too many handballs ... and it bemuses the @#$%&! out of me when i can see that opposition sides are waiting for us to handball that one too many and then we turn it over predictably.
I see Gibbs becoming a short stats man just behind the ball...

Youd want him making the attacks inside 50 to either Fev or the best player available.
I see very little body work and blocking/shepherding for team mates.
I see Judd being raped week in week out.. which means we soul have players loose.
I see defenders and players in general with no idea how to deal with the ball if its above their eyebrows...
I see some shocking decisions on the selection table.. but thats personal...

But the problem is all of these things are recurring.
We dont address any of the major problems..and if you do the same things you will be the same.

I dunno how you reckon you see them training excellently... though i know you get along more than i do,

But the proof is always in the pudding...

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What???????



Its all about development....

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And their disposal was shocking, they had a habit of going backwards, sideways, round in circles, often looked totally lost and like they had no idea what to do when the ball got to the centreline. My brother in law is a Hawks fan and he used to tear his hair out!

Thanks for an interesting perspective from observation at training BV.

I take it you enjoy Joan Baez more than Lily Allen???

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Well I don't often dance with my sister.

Garry Coleman when he was in 'Different Strokes' or Garry Coleman the security guard?

Brooke Shields at ................................................ lets say 18 or Brooke Shields Agassi housewife????

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synbad, seriously, leave it out, its boring.

i cant read a flower thread without you telling us how there is no game plan.

perhaps, part of the problem is we are looking to create several game plans rather than one. who flower knows.

but just leave it out.

as it is, im sick to death of listen to people, talking about what carlton should do and shouldnt do.

the constant reference to judd and ablett, and how he is protected by the geelong players. hello, ablett is now 25/26 being protected by 25/26 year old players.

judd isnt going to get protected by players who are 22/21/20 or younger, and that is our problem.

not no game plan, not lack of skills.

there is a reason, when we can play a free running open game, we clean up, and its because our weakness isnt exploited, we can use our positives to the upmost advantage.

is it any surprise that when we come up to a side that has more mature harden bodies (hawks, swans, crows) and judd gets tagged, we struggle?

we simply dont have the physical presence yet to be able to bloke for other players or put fear into an opponent.

with the exception of Judd/Stevens/Fevola/Scotland/Thorton who in our starting 22 exactly is going to provide all this bloking and intimidation?T-Bird tries it, but its not natural for him. Judd has done it when it is needed. Fevola shouldnt be anywhere near it, beucase the minute he gets involved a free kick will be paid against us, and that leaves us with scotland and stevens. nither of which are vicous players. Scotland is tough and hard, as was shown when it was his tuirn to go, against the pies, it was his turn and he went.

but outside of the players, who do we have that is hard and up for it.

hadley, i thought would be one, but he hasnt come on as hoped.
bentick, is someone i think we have written off too quickly and i perosonally think he could be that grunt, bloking type player, that can also work as an in an under plaer, to free up judd.

i look forward to the day that grigg,walker are both in the side as they have that agression, as does jospeh, and austin looks a likely type as well. and lets not forget robbo. he is a mad hater and as he matures he would be able to play the role.

but as the monent, we dont have any players of that type. and here is the amazing fact, nor does any side in the history of the game have had that when they are playing as young as we are. not geeling, does anyone think they where blokcing for ablett 5 years ago? not hawthorn, where they as hard and as tough as they are now 5 years ago?

hawk/geeling have achieved alot, but the are also alot more mature as sides than we are. hawks may have a young list, but there starting 22 is way polder than our starting 22. they have mature harden bodies. we do not.

and whilst that is the case, which is going to be for a few years yet, we will struggle at times. if a side lets us play, we will smash them, but if a side does all the can to close us down and put us uinder intense body pressure we will struggle. that isnt becase of a weak midnset, it isnt becuase we arent good enough, its a simple fact that we dont have the body to compete at that level yet.

perhaps a danger for us, is we may not have that aggresive edge. yes we can play some damn good football, but we have a long way to go before we are playing hard agrresuiv football.

is that making excuses? not inmy opinion, it is the simple fact of the matter, that we the age of our list and the team playing, we simply dont have any monsters runnign around.

i tell you this, i would through just about everything at getting a player like chapman/suell over to carlton. we need a player with that hard attitude and aggression now, not in 3 years.

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

[


Ok so you think we do have a gameplan.. but we need chappy to complete us...???

Ok..


thanks for your contribution....

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I guess if you listen to music or watch shabby sitcom replays instead of sneaking in to all the closed training sessions you could be forgiven for not knowing what happens at training.

look at our best (potentially) 22 of the players we have

my ideal best 22 is as follows

(FP) Yarren (FF) Fevola (FP) Betts
(HFF) Gibbs (CHF) Kreuzer (HFF) Robinson
(W) Walker (C1) Judd (W) Simpson
(HBF) Waite (CHB) Austin (HBF) Scotland
(BP) Bower (FB) Jamieson (BP) Thorton

(Ruck) Warnock (C2) Gibbs (C3) Murphy
(inter) Hampson, Grigg, Stevens,

there is a hell of alot of talent and potential in that list.

but where is the agression? i would count Walker/Grigg/Joseph/Austin/Robinson with that type of aggresion, but what we need to do is give them time to back that agression up they need the mature bodies behind them to be able to bloke for judd, protect another player etc..

will that take us from a good side to a great side, no, but it will go a hell of along way to doing so.

you can have all the game plans in the world, but until you have a side that is able to take the pace/impact of the game there are going to be games you struggle in. you only need to look at the bulldogs who have only a few hard players and how they still struggle at times.

there is a reason geelong/hawks/lions etc have won the gf of late.

hard, tough, mature bodies, sprinkled with elite talent.

we have the talent, we just need the time, to mature

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

Why sneak into closed training sessions where were preparing for the games when you can actually walk through the gate on matchday and see how the preparation has materialised???

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.