then he was worth one.

You are.
It's about being able to play when you go out to play.
You can show any mug what to do, being able to do it's another matter entirely.

They should draft me........im willing ... not sure about able...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Yeah..nah. Can't see it myself. You would be stuff that and go out and do your own thing

Well if i were Fev and some cartoon character from MAD magazine was coaching me and asked me to play in the back pocket i would say "stuff that and do my own thing".................

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Maybe. Doesn't mean another club was going to give us one for him.

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

What's Thompsons plan B or C? Or Clarkson....or Roos? Explain them to me.

It's time for some of you to get over it. It's not real. Multiple "gameplans" are nonsense made up in the mind of uninformed supporters.
A "game plan" is how a team is drilled to react to a series of events that occur in a game. It's not a book that the players carry in their back pocket!
The training drills attempt to simulate match situations and the players are expected to react in a manner that will create consistent, quality decision making on game day. That is what Ratten and the other 15 coaches are trying to achieve. Good decision making on a consistent basis.

Unfortunately for Ratten, his charges were beaten over the head with the dumbing stick for 5 years. There was little development of decision making under Pagan. It was a case of "do as I say", not "do as you think". We spoke about this multiple times. Players cannot catch up in the space of 18 months.
Developing the decision making of players is the same as developing any other skill. It takes time and some players will develop the skill faster than others.

At the moment, our players are reacting well to most situations however when our opponents flood the corridor or press up the ground, we are still struggling to work our way through those scenarios successfully. And when we successfully counter that, the opposition will try to devise a new way to break us down. It will take time.
The fact is all the coaches you mentioned (except Knights) have been in similar situations. They've all had their abilities and tactical nous questioned by the supporters and come out the other side. Time is the key!

Essendon* on the other hand will take their turn to come under scrutiny now. Teams put time and effort into us because we were rated as a viable opposition. Lets see how Essendon* fare now that teams are putting time into them.
As for Ratten, he'll keep working on our deficiencies. From what I've witnessed at training, his drills focus on improving our decision making and simulating match scenarios we struggle in. Unfortunately repetition and experience are the only answers. They take time.

We can whinge as much as we want but Ratten can only create the right environment for the players to learn. How long they take to actually become proficient in these areas is out of his hands.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Cmon BV,
Rattens problem isnt Pagan 2 years in.



There is nothing to suggest Ratten has done anything with this group.

Thompson hasnt got a plan b cos he has won all but 2 games in 2 and a half years or whatever.

WE need a plan A... and its amazing how we dont have one cos of Pagan....

By the way... if Ratts starts changing things completely around in the way we play.. is everything you witnessed us do with our decision making bring for nothing?,,all that work pre season? all those lectures? all those closed sessions???

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Mark Thompsons a good example, isn't he?

How did Geelong fare in his first few years?
2000, good result. Made finals but bundled out.
2001. 12th. Do you think the supporters could see the big picture?
2002 9th. Out of the finals again.
2003. 12th again. 4 years in. Surely he should have been sacked? Where's the improvement?
Where's his plan A, B and C? Surely all the lectures and pre season work were for nothing!!!!

Fortunately those in charge realise things dont turn around in 10 minutes.

Ross Lyon. Took over from Grant Thomas after the Saints finished 6th. 14 wins and a % of 118. Not bad from Grant.
In 07 (Lyons first year. Out of the finals with a % of 98.) Oh oh!

2008, Lyons second season (just like Ratten), after 9 nine rounds, the Saints are 10th on the ladder with a winning % of 44 and an overall % of 98.
Have the Saints improved at this stage? Are the supporters getting agitated because they're basing all their assessments on win/loss % instead of looking at the big picture?
You bet.

Fortunately those in charge could see the improvement. For Carlton, fortunately Swann and co. can also see the improvement. In training terms we are light years ahead of 2007. It will just take time for the players to digest it all.

To suggest we have'nt improved from 2 years ago is unfathomable.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Massive cop out.
7 players from round 22 in 2006 played last Saturday.

You stay classy san diego. You know the argument is in trouble when you start paying out the way the bloke looks to support your case.

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The only way for some people to understand is for them to be on the receiving end

Left wing moralists
In self serving denial
They shit me no end

I'm sure that date holds some relevence for you but it doesn't to this conversation.
Run along.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

It holds plenty of relevance to the point you made.
Somehow you see 5 years of Pagan as responsible for deficiencies and bad habits in our current team, but this is arrant nonsense.
Stevens, Waite, Simpson, Fevola, Wiggins and Thornton are the only players from last weekend's team to have played under Pagan for a large part of his tenure.
Of the remainder Ratten has coached all of them in more games than Pagan did, and 11 have never been coached by Pagan.
[edit] sheeting any of our current deficiencies back to Pagan is a cop out.

Please try and adhere to our Guidelines everybody.

I am not going to try and defend BV (he's a big boy) but one thing I want to add is about the culminative (?) effect.

A kid comes in (say last year) and its not just Ratts & co that needs to educate him, its the other players, players who have played under Pagan (for example). If they are struggling to impart anything (because they have little to impart for a number of reasons) then its going to be hard for the kids.

Its why we went after Judd

Its why Melvey bangs on about needing to bring folk in from successful clubs

We need role models - because I will guarantee in a team sport modelling is as important as anything.

Its why Murph/Kruise/Gibbs (and others) are so important to this club - its not just about their talent - its about the models they will provide the new kids. Thats what I am talking about in terms of youth. We have shocking middle/veteran tier role models at this club. Its what we are building - and they in turn will help the new kids on the block - listen to Maclure - its what Carlton once had and lost.

It could be why Ratts wanted to bring in Braddles/Williams etc - not because its an old boys club but because he wanted some role models back - oh and on Williams did any listen to Jobe - seems Williams had a bit of a hand in helping him get his game together.

If Pagan and the MC were as destructive as some say (and we were bad regardless, I mean really, really bad) then this modelling is going to take time - yet we have all seen instances of what this side can do (and will as the new models become the role models over the next 2 or so years), its why clubs can bring in kids and they seem to know what they are doing straight away and we seem to struggle.

Take Bower - who did he have to learn the caper off? T-Bird. Anyone else? Maybe Saddo?

Its not good - but Bower will be a great model for the newer kids and so on.

Its about rebuilding and thats what we are still doing - we are rebuilding - we are no where near a Hawthorn or Geelong yet and probably still behind Essendon* because of that modelling aspect.

We needed Judd and we need a bit more time. Patience - we now know talent is growing at Carlton and the rest will come.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Yeah, good post Danny, and I take all your points on board, but the supposed bad habits instilled in the players under Pagan is pure speculation and nothing more.
It's true that we lack mid aged role models at the club but this was due more to poor recruiting prior to Pagan's arrival than anything else.
Livingstone, Sporn and Wiggins should ideally be in that category now, we missed two years at the draft of four players who would now have been at the club for 6 or 7 years, and we traded away draft picks losing what would now have been 10 year players.(Chapman is playing great football for Geelong, Mansfield is long forgotten).
Pagan had no control or influence over any of this, but the damage has been done regardless of who was at fault.
We need to suck it up and get on with it, but continually blaming Pagan and the previous match committee only gives us an excuse for failure, and not even a valid one.

Thanks for proving my point. Saves me the time.

Who's struggling to adapt to the modern game atm? Simmo has regressed, Fev plays like a pig when he has to play anywhere other than FF, T/Bird, Hoops, Wiggo etc are struggling big time.
it's the kids who are leading lights, Kruezer, Murphy, Bower, Grigg, Robbo etc. They're the ones who have really stepped up this year and are adapting.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Fevola kicked 99 goals last season, Thornton would probably be in the top 4 of our B & F so far this season, Simpson has hit some decent form after struggling in the first few rounds but has always been and always will be short of the top bracket of players, Houlihan in the seconds escapes me and many other Carlton supporters, and Wiggins has never been much good.
You didn't mention Waite and Stevens, who have both been in excellent form this year and I didn't mention Scotland who is also in very good form after a couple of average ones early on.
These players are the least of our worries, and it's a long bow to draw to attach Pagan's name to any of our current problems.

Sounds great.
If Ratts has the older players performing well and the kids coming along nicely, he must be doing a good job.

Glad we got that one sorted out.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Pagan development- Go back and look at who he picked in the drafts of 2004 and how are they going now

2005 2006 and most of 2007 under Pagan

One success

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They will create an Emergency to change the Laws