Oh Yeah............... and to add to the confusion.............

Bentley is an emergency?

WTF ???

_________________
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

Just on Houla - I thought I read somewhere that the MC had dictated his was to be judged on forward pressure - tackles laid or some such - it may be that this expectation is what has got him in trouble - point is, the MC set the agenda for players so I figure they have reasons - though Bentley last week - go figure?

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Good post VB

I think you've missed the point re Houlihan though.

I'm all for dropping players out of form for many good reasons...the message it sends, gives them an opportunity to work on a weakness, to find form, they are taking up development time of kids (in a development year?), are not the future etc.

I thought we were playing for a Finals spot. Some of the selections made this year do not suggest this imo, and that of many other posters. I accept mistakes are made, but FFS I hope that the MC would improve in this area and show some consistency with selection policy which is condusive to earning a spot in the 8.

Personally, I want and believe we can earn a spot in the 4, which would give our kids at least 2 Finals games experience. I like our list. A lot.

This discussion isn't about Houla being dropped, it's about why Setanta and Houla were dropped ahead of out of form players such as Cloke and Wiggins, assuming form is the reason for their ommission. Cloke and Wigglers form over the last 3 weeks has been below par, in fact, their output was far less than Setanta and Houla over the last 2 weeks.

It's a point of discussion, not player bashing which you just did again suggesting Houlihan" "... has been a soft, slow coaster for years, who just gets by on a bit of top end talent. But now the list is full of depth and kids with talent pushing up (who need games into them)".

You're using your perception of Houla over the last 8 years and applying it to his 'actual' output in 2009. I think most posters would acknowledge that he has toughened up, is doing more 1%ers this year than ever before and his 131 disposals and 6 gaols 1 this year, playing as a rotating midfielder from the bench is not something you can just discount just like that.

Yes he is a "top end talent" and we shouldn't forget his value to this team in terms of class and experience. Those goals he's kicked are a bit better than either of Cloke's and Wiggler's goals in 2009 and are an essential ingredient if we are going to develop different avenues to goal. Houla is a bona fide forward who is playing more of a midfield role than Cloke and Wiggler.

Sure drop him as it sends a message, but on the flip side, I believe it's the turn of Cloke and Wiggins who should be under such scrutiny this week. What sort of a message is being delivered by retaining Cloke and Wiggins this week when their form doesn't warrant selection.

There are a lot of public forums debating this very issue and consensus is that Houla and Setanta are very unlucky to be dropped and Cloke and a couple of others, including Wiggins, are damn lucky the MC has turned a blind eye to their present form. I'm not alone with this 'gut' feel.

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

..true enough, but if yer not playin' as a perm forward yer not gonna have a huge forward pressure type game.. ..for what it's worth, his spoils, tackles, smothers and blocks etc etc have improved, so he's doing the harder things which he's been criticised of in the past.. ..not sure why he's not in, but he will be missed.. ..the ins don't replace what we lose in Hoops (and how he's been used)..

_________________
..if you can't be good, be good at it..

Maybe he was set a benchmark against the Dawks given he is a senior player and didn't meet the criteria set.

_________________
“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

Houla was so disappointing last week. Every time he was in a one-on-one I just KNEW Hawthorn would get the ball!

The number of times he went to ground during a contest when he needed to keep his feet and take a hit ... the number of weak attempts at a tackle. Very frustrating!! I expect better from our senior players.... they should be leading the way for our kids!! The Hawks match was a big, big test and he got badly exposed!

The message is clear. HTFU or you're out!!!

_________________
When Dick became President, it was as if everyone at Carlton came out of the hailstorm and into the sunshine - Stephen Kernahan

YARRAN!!





.

No problem with that DUC.

But I would hazard an educated guess that their must have been KPI's set for Cloke and Wiggins, and because they were unnoticed in the 100 minutes, surely they didn't even get slightly close to their KPI's/ benchmark.

How many goals did our two key forwards (Cloke & Wiggins) kick last week?
How many from them for the year?
And of those how many did they earn? (Hint: Cloke has 4 from hanball receives standing alone in the goal square)

Now lets look at who would be a better option in a multi prong forwardline of the above 3 players. No brainer imo. Play Houla forward before these other 2 are consdiered.

But yeah, make them all earn a spot and replace them all with kids if they want to send a message.

Lets compare Cloke and Setanta's output over the last 2 weeks, then lets factor how many minutes each of those 2 players spent on the ground. I think we all know the result.

The MC have baffled most of us with this week's message.

I think we're going to win regardless of the selections, but imo that is not by any means attributable to the MC but moreso to the handful of personnel who drive this team.

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Why would anyone question why Houla got dropped.

Well he is experienced so he has no excuse for going missing, and being soft. Maybe we are tired of his shit - Finally.

Setanta - No idea how to read the play. He has no position, cannot rely on in at all.

Bentley - No brainer

Carazzo - Anyone thinks he is in our best are kidding themselves. Still seeing those loopy handballs to a teammate who is 'hot'

The reason Cloke is there, is that even though he was shit last week, he serves a purpose. He continues like last week, he should be dropped. But he has been good this year.

Russell, another one that shits me, but he offers something for now.

As for the Match Committee at least they are trying new things, they may or may not work out, but I can see the logic in them.

Houlihan, Russell are similar players, and I would rather the younger player. Houlihan has been around a long time. At least Russell tackles.

As for Wiggins, I am not his best supporter and he had a bad week last week but he offers another marking target.

Forecast for Saturday
Mostly fine, just a chance of a shower or two mainly in the morning. Temp 15-24

Track Good, Weather Fine- Go Blues

_________________
Cheats never prosper (except in the AFL)

Yeah it seems that's the message, but what's the cost?

"Don't worry about your impact on the game, just go in hard. Your possessions, goals and goal assists count for nothing".

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

What key forwards do Fremantle have to warrant Carlton playing their least effective of 4 key backs? I know some of you see ins and outs as the weekly chance to punish players, but there is also that thing called match ups. Setant could have played a decent game last week and still been on the outs because outside of Pav they have NO key forwards. Now Cloke played a shocker last week but this week he stays in the side as a key forward because Freo have an abundance of key backs - McPharlin, Tarrant, Grover, Hayden, it's their biggest strength, and unless we want to see 2 of them parked 10m in front of Fev we'd best put a few options down there to take a few men. Now Freo's mid field is not capable of nullifying our goal kicking mids, but guys like Ibbotson will wiggle free and get 30 touches, most of them good. And seeing as our 'fab four' dont tackle, our 6th and 7th midfielders will struggle to get a spot if they dont tackle either. Facts are JR keeps his spot because he tackles so the guys who need to push him out of the side are Robbo, Browne, Anderson, Bently, Bentick. Out of this group Anderson is doing the best and I'm not sure I'd choose him over JR to go on to Ibbotson. I love Houla's skills, but a bloke on SEN said it best the other day, there's only one spot for a soft receiving winger with lace-out skills in this side and Stevens is shading Hoops at the moment.

Just searching for definition Fev.

Was Cloke just 'shit' last week?

Was Wiggins 'shit' last week?

What about the week before that? Were they 'shit'?

What position have they given Setanta to prove himself?

Has Setanta been given the same opportunity as Cloke to develop in a position?

Did Wiggins only have a shit game last week?

How many goals do you expect Wiggins and Cloke as 2 forward targets to kick each week? What are their numbers ytd?

If you were to play Houla, where would you have him? Midfield or forward?

Who would you have as your preferred goal kicking forward: Cloke, Wiggins or Houlihan?

If Houla was shit last week, then how would you describe Cloke's and Wiggins' game last week? Now compare the same 3 for the week before that...then try the same for the week before that too.

I understand you don't like Houla. You're entiltled to your bias. But serioussly, do you really rate Cloke and Wiggins ahead of Houla as goal kicking options?

Frankly, I think Ratts hasn't got a clue about what to do with Setanta. He has done @#$%&! all for his development and he's not doing us or the team any favours playing favourites between Clokey and Setanta.

Ironic how those 2 were involved in THE incident and Setanta survived the axe and now they are fighting for a spot...or at least from the outside they should be...and given equal opportunity, especially given that Cloke is not the answer abd does not add value to the fabric of this team.

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

The message is loud and clear...... NO MORE PASSENGERS

99.9% of the footballing public know Setanta is not up to it

It just convincing those handfull of one eyed Carltons supporters that he is not .

If he was playing for Collingwood or any other side we would be all sitting back here taking the piss out of him

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I would have Houlihan in the team ahead of Cloke or even Wiggins even though they have different roles.
Ball use and footy smarts still count for something. Its not all about being another marking target just for its own sake.
I can see that Yarran may supersede Houlihan quickly but Cloke was just horrible on the weekend. Getting outmarked and outbustled by Lewis was the last straw for me.

_________________
T E A M

2009

Tackles
R. Houlihan - 21
J. Russell - 19

_________________
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

I'm disappointed with Santy's omission too Bondi (surprise, surprise ), but I'm willing to see it as an attempt to develop him. Dr Sherrin noted that Ratts and Teaguey took him aside at the public training session and were working with him on contested marking. That suggests that they're interested in him as a forward and want to develop that aspect of his game. Perhaps it is better to do that with the Bullants rather than the senior side.

The problem with doing that in the seniors is that he'll rely on mids to kick it to him, and he also has to earn the confidence of the coaches if he wants to be allowed to act as a main target and static marking target.

He hasn't really led much, and when it's clear there's going to be a long kick and a chance of a contested mark Santy always cleared out and left it to Fev, Kreuzer and Cloke to contest. I suspect that he was doing as he was instructed, as Santy doesn't shirk a challenge. As Denis Cometti uncharitably put it, he has "delusions of adequacy" and goes for it when those who lack confidence might avoid doing so. And he is very resilient - he comes back from a stuff up very well. That confidence is good as it'll see him develop rather than plateau.

He needs the coaches to give him a role as a leading forward, and permission to stay where long kicks are likely to land. That's more likely to happen at Bullants level where the stakes are less.

It's also an issue of winning the confidence of his team mates. At the moment, I suspect that he could lead constantly but team mates would almost always kick elsewhere if he doesn't lose his defender. At least the Bulldogs game gave him street cred with opposing coaches when it comes to being a damaging loose defender. That gives him some value as he can pull his opponent out of F50 because he's dangerous to leave by himself. But to be more than a decoy, players need to be willing to kick it to him when his opponent is near him. A ball carrier looking for options will want to pick out the safest option not only to maximise the team's advantage but also his own. An example of that is when Santy kicked from a HBF to Bentley as Mitchell ran to spoil. Bentley was in the corridor, and was the most attacking option but in retrospect Santy would have been better to take a safer and less attacking one. Because of Bentley's failure to take one step forward to take an easy mark, it ended up as a turnover and was swept down to the Hawk's forward line. If Bentley had taken the mark and fed the ball well into F50 for an eventual goal, Santy would have been lionised for his willingness to take a direct route to goal over hugging the boundary. But instead, some take pot shots at him saying it was his fault Both Santy and the team were hurt by honouring Bentley's call for the ball. The same thing no doubt leads to reluctance when Santy calls for it. The guy who passes the ball to him if he stuffs up knows his stocks go down as a result. Good on Juddy for trying to bring him into play with that handball, but Juddy doesn't have to worry about his stocks. A lesser player would.

Ideally, Santy becomes a main target at the Bullants and the game plan and instructions to the midfielders see him used as an active rather than a decoy key forward. If he takes some marks on the lead and in contests, then he comes back into the side as a forward option who the coaches and the players are willing to use. A bag of 5 or more would create confidence.

It would be far better for Santy if he takes Cloke's spot not because Cloke's out of form, but because Santy is regarded as being a better option.

Ryan, I agree with you to some extent about Russell, he was EXTREMELY disappointing last week and really pissed me off with some of his efforts. I’m not going to say whether he should be in or out of the side but last week was sh!thouse
Unfortunately for Hoops, and I am a big fan, he just isn’t playing at the same level of intensity as he was at the start of the season and those piss-weak, lettuce leaf tackles are starting to creep back into his game and is not attacking the contest as is required.

I keep hoping that he can do more here but it has dropped off again. The MC must’ve had enough. Let’s see if he’s made the right call. I’ve lost my faith though after the Bentley shocker selection

_________________
C'mon Blueboys!

IMO The MC have set a minimum baseline for performances: Hard at the ball and Hard at the contest! If we're going to be any sort of serious threat for the flag in the coming years this is the minimum standard, the benchmark, that MUST be expected of every player across the board.

If you can't do that then don't expect to get regular senior games... it doesnt matter what other skills you bring to the table. It's the reason why players with average skills but are hard at it, like Wiggins, are still getting games. I reckon it's a good message to our whole playing group.

If you meet these minimum requirements you stay in the side. If you're not in the side, then you must meet these benchmarks as a prerequisite, as well as bring other skills to the mix, and ONLY THEN will you start to get picked ahead of guys like Wiggins and Russell. You only need to have a look at someone like Fisher.. he is a prime example where these standards have already been applied.

The Hawks match was a HUGE test to see who can stand up in a high intensity contest. This is just the sort of game that shows which players can be relied upon when we play Finals Footy. As one of our senior players Houla got a Big Fail from me in this match. Every time he was in a contest I just knew hawthorn would end up with the ball. Not good enough!! These are the sort of plays we need to weed out of the side if we're going to improve to become serious contenders. No more passengers! I hope the omission will spur Houla on to improve himself.

_________________
When Dick became President, it was as if everyone at Carlton came out of the hailstorm and into the sunshine - Stephen Kernahan

YARRAN!!





.

So you think what started as a defender, then became a ruck, maybe now they will try to develop him as a forward? Maybe. Maybe not. Hope it works regardless.

Whether the coaches do the right thing by him or not, he will need to take his chances, because I have a feeling if he doesn't step up this year he might be delisted or traded, if anyone wants him.

I like Setanta's passion and I agree he takes the 'hard knocks' well and usually bounces back (ie: being dropped, as opposed to being smashed in a game), but like anyone else he needs to make serious inroads at some point, and I think it's fair to say he hasn't done that yet. He's 27 next year, so by the time he 'makes it' he will be getting closer to the end than the start, unless he can remain incredibly durable and injury free.

_________________
It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it