Some "supporters" save their venom for hurling at their own players. They're the worst people to be sitting near.

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

Have to agree with one major exception. Rougheads mark in the 1st quarter when he kicked his second goal was not a flowering mark. He got on a roll after that. He didn't hold the ball long enough and basically dropped the mark. The umpire guessed, not good enough. Especially in a game decided by less than a kick. We should also have been given a 50m penalty when Franklin booted the ball away in the last. But really that didn't affect the outcome as in the next play Army got it to Fev.... and we know the rest.

the umpire also guessed with judds holding the ball call

he had no clear line of sight to make that call

they shouldnt be guessing any calls but they do it a lot

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*(grow - fun - gah)

Yeah but whatabout your whataboutism.

I haven't read through the entire thread but there doesn't appear to have been much made of Setanta being felled behind play. Anyone see what happened?

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

Dissapointing to lose, but encouraging to see the improvement in the side - we would have lost to that Hawthorn side by about 10-12 goals last season.

Feel for Fev, yes he should have kicked it, but he'd kicked 8 and if that isn't enough for us to win then we didn't deserve to.

I was pretty happy with how we played, just felt we left a bit too much to too few on Saturday...Kruezer, Judd, Murphy and Fev carried a heavy load, had a few more put their hands up we might have pipped them.

We need 22 contributors to beat teams like Hawthorn and Geelong.

But we're definitely heading in the right direction.

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There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you cant take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you’ve got to make it stop!

The problem is we still have around 3-5 players every week who continuously get games without much trouble. As many posters have noted already our bottom tier players are ordinary and are holding us back slightly. These players cant hack it in the heat of the moment against quality opposition like the Hawks on Saturday. Players like Cloke, Wiggins, O Hailpin, Bentley (Ok I maybe am being harsh, but he shouldnt have been in the team) are not going to get us to a flag.

Taylors been cited I think

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

We'd lose the flag by 4 points.

Thanks verbs I needed that

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Lawrence Lawrence, The man who knows all the rackets and all the racketeers!

2 week ban for a sniper like his coach.

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

Great call!!

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You want the flame? Give us the marbles!!

Great post Verbs !

Err, wed lose the flag by 4 points if 6 premiership players are still missing.

I dont accept the spin on this website, we couldnt beat a depleted hawks side, how are we going to beat them at their best whilst these players still get a game?

So not a good call, Verbs

And to the rest, stop getting so worked up everytime people who post on here single out individual players.

The best side available to us - and that is a subjective thing, obviously - almost, but not quite beat the reigning premiers who had their best team available to them on the field.

Any talk of teams etc is just a moot point, and an excercise in futility, IMO.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

They would not have been the reigning premiers with so many players missing late last year, they may not even have made the GF. Its not really futile at all, I think its reasonable to assume that we would not have got as close if they had a full side. We only have 1 key player injured (walker) whilst they have 6 of their GF winning side out, excluding Crawford.

I just think people are getting ahead of themselves and over estimating how good we are by stating that we have the talent for a flag and blaming Ratten for not utilising it properly, I dont think we do when the players I mentioned above are still getting games relatively easily. We have the talent to finish around 6-8th if things go our way. But until those players are struggling to get a game and we can have 22 in the side who cant stand up and be counted when it matters, we wont get near the likes of Geelong any time soon. That being said, we are definitely on the improve, we have 4 or 5 players who are front runners when in the past few years its been half the side who have been ordinary.

but you accept the media and hawthorn spin about how badly their side is depleted?

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*(grow - fun - gah)

Yeah but whatabout your whataboutism.

It was a pretty good call by Verbs...........just admit it.

The Bears premiership teams changed by 4 or 5 players each year. Some of the blokes who didnt play in the hawks flag last year played pretty well. Some better than those they replaced. I would have loved Ellis ahead of Dowler for example.

As Ratts sifts through the list he will find those who can do what they are asked. It will take a bit of time but they are out there.

Go Blues !

Hawthorn will be unbeatable once they get their premiership star in Crawford back. He alone will mean they beat us by 7 points.

If Croad recovers to play AFL footy again, they'd beat us by 9 points.

They will untouchable soon. INVINCIBLE!

There's no way to prove this one way or the other. So there's little to no point even discussing it



If you're talking about them having a "full" side, then you also have to match the hypothetical of us also having a fully fit side. And as someone else pointed out, subbing out of their team some newer youngsters who have shown great form and skill, for some players who may actually deplete the side, regardless of being premiership players.

You may as well "assume" they can sub Crawford in too.

There's only one thing which is definite: The team we had on the field on the day should have beaten Hawthorn, and they have admitted as much that they got away with that match and didn't deserve it in many ways. That in itself is a huge statement.

Teams don't change that radically year by year that Hawthorn is going to go from flag winners to also-rans that quickly. Or, for that matter, that we're going to go from an improving young side to world beaters overnight.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Their whole backline is missing FFS. They arent household names but they are very important to their structure.

We are not a better side than Hawthorn....yet. Thats my point, we didnt lose because of Ratten's coaching like some on here have suggested.