And that pretty much sums John Elliott up.

and i couldnt give a stuff what you think Synbad, i know exactly what happens and what doesnt happen when it comes to dealing with communties and large scale developments, having been involved in such things in a professional manner. most of your argument is blown out the water, from one simple scenario. there is a large residence group that oppose the grand prix, funnily enough, grand prix still goes on every year, now even at night

yeah, im around, but havent felt the need to say anything. through this entire saga that has been the stadium deals, ive only ever had one thought and it hasnt changed, from when we where forced to leave PP. the afl is run by a bunch of idiots that would not understand the concept of forward thinking. they afl and the clubs created the situatuion they currently face, but as usual, the afl sooks, and will sook until it gets its way.

its like dealing with a 5 year old who cant get the dress up costume they wanted, and yes, for me, its a massive case of, I TOLD YOU SO.

and i couldnt give a stuff what you think Synbad, i know exactly what happens and what doesnt happen when it comes to dealing with communties and large scale developments, having been involved in such things in a professional manner. most of your argument is blown out the water, from one simple scenario. there is a large residence group that oppose the grand prix, funnily enough, grand prix still goes on every year, now even at night

PP was a viable, low drawing crowd stadium, back then, just as it is now (if it was a stadium). If the AFL had a remote concept of forward thinking, they would realise the sitation that where creating, but no, when you have an organisation that has a vested interested in a stridum, you are going to ge true conflicts of interest, also, running their business to personally and with too much emotion, where too hell bent on removing any sort of power carlton had, but also doing everything it can to ensure that Elliot was removed.

In the process, as someone has alluded to (i think it was bluemark) they stuffed themselves up in the process. the AFL sold a dud to everyone, and everyone bought it. (well most, i didnt buy it then and i dont buy it now) Everyone will say we where forced to move games, and maybe so, but im still yet to hear a reasonably argument as to why the AFL could not play games there. and here we are, not 5 years later, and the AFL is talking of how lovely it would be to have a third stadium.

I didnt accept it then, and i dont accept it now, "becuase the AFL doesnt want to"

well, too all the clubs complaining about losing money at TD and the MCG, and the AFL, i say to you, suffer in your jocks. you had a cheaper alternative, you had a third viable stadium, but you where all so stupid and was convinced of the DUD that AFL sold everyone that you didnt do enough due diligence to realise what you where faces with.

ANnd before you say, iwe all know it bac then, it was rumoured when we first moved that cost to break even was something along the lines of 11k at PP, 25K at MCG, 35k at TD.

This hasnt changed from all reports, you signed the deal, so shut up. the afl are morons to letting this happen, but so to are the clubs. If any of them had the balls and brains to say, hold on, we think we are better of keeping it, rather than being the juvenile little shits that couldnt get there way and wanted to go to the "promised lands" made beautiful by the AFL, none of the clubs would be faced with the issues they are now.

so to these poor clubs (and to a lesser extent carlton themselves) i say, you where idiots then, and yo continue to be idiots now.

we got shafted,
you got shafted
everyon bit the afl got shafted, and now you all want to cry poor.

I actually hope both stadiums tell the AFL to get flower. it is about time that the knob ends that work at the AFL realise, that they arent the beez knees and if they stuff up their is something to pay. The AFL needs to be complelty overhauled, becuase at the moment, they have too many idiots with too many figures in too many pies.
they only thing the AFL should be involved in is the clubs.

you simply can not have an orgainsation owning or having a vested interest in a stiadium and then allow them to control the draw. you create a situation ... that we face right now.

seriously this is pathetic, mainly your use of the word 'most' - on what are you basing this on? And as for saying they prefer docklands you must be on something pretty strong. Ask every single social club member which ground they prefer to watch the blues at? What? they don't represent most? The represent a fair percentage of people that regularly go to games. As for your other comments about membership increasing etc - this has happened across the board at all clubs, the fact is that most supporters that regularly go to games enjoyed princes park more, the difference is that many of us realise that there were reasons to move - I'm on the fence on that in that I think if we had to move we should have got a half decent deal.

ps. Docklands figures are never correct (inflated by a fair bit as well) and we will not go into the $$$$$ we make or don't make either.

Steve you can't be happy with the deal the club struck

The title of this thread should be enough of a giveaway.
John Elliot was, is, and always will be an opinionated, pompous buffoon.
He bankrupted the club, constructed the worst playing list in our history, paid a wooden spoon side $4 Mil over the salary cap, cost us two years of cream draft picks and built a white elephant grandstand at enormous cost that was full once in it's sorry history.
Aby idea he's ever had is poison, pure and simple.

I met Ben Buckley in 2003, and remember having a really good discussion with him about grounds. At the time, I argued the AFL needed a 3rd ground in Melbourne. For example, it would have made sense to keep one ground where all the clubs would go to play against teams like Fremantle and Port Adelaide. I'm not saying which venue would have been best, each of them had a stigma with being associated with one particular club, and there probably needed to be something which was a bit more 'neutral' than that. Anyway, Buckley disagreed with me, and the result is what we have now.

I wonder if the redeveloped Cararra (for those who haven't been following, a 20-25,000 boutique stadium) might be a blueprint for a future third Melbourne ground?

A third stadium could work anywhere, including PP if it had the support of the AFL. The opportunity for PP to be that is gone, so I don’t think it is worthwhile debating this.
At the time, we were between a rock and a hard place – massive debt and ongoing maintenance for the ground, no league support to play games there and a legacy of years past, poor public infrastructure.

I don’t think attendance figures should be used to counter arguments about staying at PP. I’m sure the Cats don’t give two hoots about that playing at Kardinia Park because games there improve their bottom line. Clubs would love to be able to access a venue like that!

The problems with keeping PP as an AFL venue started with Jack’s stubborn, egotistical stance with the original redevelopment. His grating nature with the AFL only further preventing co-operation from them and a strategy at the time to consolidate Melbourne stadia.

The benefit to the AFL now of having PP would be to leverage negotiations with the MCG and Etihad – no other reason to keep it you’d think.

Did I miss something, because other than Jakes article and some bluffing regarding better deals for clubs, I don't recall the AFL stating their desire to build a 3rd stadium or needing one.

Just a quick question, what percentage of games would have an attendance of 25,000 or less in Melbourne each week?

Fair enough SC7

Well, the AFL should've pushed for greater returns from both stadiums before turning its back on PP. They dont have much room to negotiate now.