Prez, your comment about Murphy, Hurn and Kos all going down in the same match doesn't really come into it.
That could happen to anyone.
Could have happened to Walker against the Eagles and Stevens against North.

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Thanks for all the ideas guys - great to see the Club put this up and create some meaningful discussion. I didnt expect them to put it up.... but here it is!

Pick 2 and 4 aren't early enough though are they Synbad?! We're doomed unless we get pick 1 and Murphy aren't we!:lol: Optus Oval will just collapse onto itself Synbad!

Add that to another pick 2 (Walker), a pick 9 and more than likely some high picks again next season and there are your early picks Synbad.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

Are you ok Synbad?

You seem to not understand that even if we win the game we will still have picks 2 and 4 for heavens' sake! It's not like we have to settle for picks 10 and 12 if we win but picks 2 and 4! At 2 and 4 we should be able to get future champions of the club!

Meaningless game Synbad? Maybe, but get over it, we'll win future premierships WITHOUT MARC MURPHY! GET IT INTO YOUR HEAD, THE CLUB IS BIGGER THAN MURPHY, WE WOULD GET 2 FUTURE GUNS! As if this game will determine our future

What's your way Synbad you defeatist of approaching the next ten years? Pick 1/3 in 2005, repeat for years until sir Synbad is convinced that hey we're not really that bad now and we can move up the ladder with your permission.

Win a bloody game and at the same time snare two of the best 4 kids in the country this year! I'll take that! Then next year let's see how we go, more than likely we'll get some more high picks, probably the year after that too! And we don't need any pick 1's or wooden spoons to get back to the top, you can guarantee that!

Geez Synbad I reckon you and the other doom merchants need to lie down and relax and realise that the world doesn't end tomorrow and won't end if we don't get Murphy! Enjoy life Synbad! Pursue that job as talent spotter and leadership identifier because you have that intrinsic talent of spotting who the leaders are from the day they are born and who isn't a leader!

Synbad.. I’m going to put you in the "Doesn’t have a clue basket"

Sorry…but in you go!!!!

Oops a daisy...

See I can be condescending too Synners!

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

And your new contribution to the argument is, nothing.

Possibly, but it's hardly the worst post in these 14 pages.

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If the 2005 draft was a better one than it is, then I dont think that Synbad would be carrying on the way he is about getting murphy.Yes Synbad gets a bit snipey, but I see his argument.

Its the fact that there appears to be a significant talent gap between murphy and the others in the top 5 or so and then a bigger drop off in ability after those that is the real issue here.

This is all about minimising the time of our football agony, not about just satisfying feelings of honor and sportsmanship for a single game - A loss in the hawks match will be forgotten very quickly as time passes but for what ever reason, picking players that arent the best available arent forgotten quickly at all, especially when they play agaist you the following year - Remember Daniel Wells in that North match early in 2004 (rnd 3 I think)?.

So get over the tanking / black plague thing and take a look at the big picture instead.

This starts with the fact that we really are in a very very bad situation right now. I dont think that people fully appreciate this and what we have to do to get out of it.

Its not a matter of, yes, the club will go on even if we pick players that are below the best available, it is a matter of being super switched on here and playing the system to even the score a bit against those draft penalties and grab the best that is there, even if that means a 2005 spoon.

It will be 3 to 5 years of very hard work ahead of us if things go right, but if we dont get the best availiable when we can - it will be longer than that.

What was the longest period between premierships for us - was it 1947 to 1968. I think there was another long period in the late 20's and into the 1930's where we were in the finals a lot but never got there, finally cracking a flag in 1938.

Do the wrong thing this time around and we will repeat this sorry tale in the first few decades of the 21st century. I just dont want that to happen.

So we desperately need the best new talent to come to Carlton if we are to start to pull out of this mess......

This is why on balance I think that if losing against Hawthorn gets us Murphy, then Id be happy for it to happen. Sure its a risk, but Id rather take a risk with a player that shows as being an elite talent than taking a risk with someone who is very good, but not star material.

Putting it differently, we really do need to get the elite talent of a player like that into our side if we are to make one of many meaningful steps to a flag in the future and not end up just being a 'nearly' side - like Geelong.

I hate the thought of us being an 'almost good enough side' more than I hate the thought of us winning a spoon this year, so as Synbad says, Im prepared to take a big spoonful of 'the yukky stuff' because we will get an elite football talent if we do - a player that will help us come back to a football power. (and Im not talking about murphy the saviour here - he is just one elite player building block in the new list that we have to build.)

I look at Richmond now, the fact that they won a spoon in 2004 is a statistical reality, but right now it kind of looks like something that is 3 or 4 years ago instead of happening only last year. This is because of the fact that the tigers had quite a few first round picks in 2004 and reaped the benefit of this.

If we are to do the same as Richmond did, then we have to make the very best we can of the 2005 draft - which unfortunately, isnt a really good one.

We are also starting a fair way behind the tigers for a number of reasons too - even more reason to bottom out in 2005.

We need the very best this year but next year, it wont be quite as critical, because there will be more high quality players available to bottom 4 teams and thankfully we wont need a wooden spoon to get the best out of next year..

I compare Carltons current situation to Richmonds 2004 predicament and feel that yes. a spoon is horrible, but it will be forgotten very quickly, especially if we get the best quality draft choices we can in a given year.

Take these big hits in 2005 and 2006, recruit well by picking the best best players available and wringing every bit of advantage out of the system and there will be a lot less pain in 2007.

I will always support Carlton, but I want a Carlton team with the talent and potential to win a flag, while I will support our team, I know that the hard reality is that anything else just isnt good enough.

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My Blue Heaven

Well written post, without much of the hyperbole and emotion. Kudos.

But... start viscious cirlce again!

I get it, but it shits me.

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Just changed my sig for you pj, just to rubber stamp that guarantee.

It shits me too, but I also know that we are a club that is pretty much lost somewhere deep in a very very big pile of excrament right now and that we have to find a way out..

I think of that old joke about swimming at bondi beach. Swimmers dont really swim there, they just go through the motions.

Well, thats what our club is doing right now......

In fact we have had so much shit this year, that a few more turds wont hurt much, nor will the absence of shit in a particular round make our year look any less shitty than it is.

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My Blue Heaven

Blues 2005, so you're saying 'hey - it's not the end of the world if we win against Hawthorn because we'll still get picks 2 and 4'.

Sure, but we won't get picks 2 and 4 if we win a couple more. Would you like us to win 6 games and finish 15th and have the Hawks get pick 1 and 2 and we only get 3?

If you're answer's yes, then cool. If your answer's no, then you're advocating the same thing that the 'tankers' are.

Does ANYONE want us to win 6 games and finish 15th? Seriously? I think Pagan and Collo would slash their wrists if that happened. And so should the supporters (metaphorically, of course).

The difference is that Pagan won't dance around singing...

"Come tank with me, let’s tank let’s tank away
If you can lose another game Blues
We don't want to win today
Come tank with me, we’ll tank we’ll tank away"


It's the joy people appear to be getting out of this that saddens me.

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Theonly way Id want that would be if I knew for sure that there had been this amazing form turnaround with our current list.

But I dont think that will happen.

I agree, not wanting to win 6 by tanking is the same as tanking against the Hawks. No one here that has been on the 'pride' side of the debate rather than the 'picks' side of the debate would be really happy if we won 6 and didnt get a pp.

They might be prompted to say a few brave things to justify their position, but in their heart of hearts would really know that to win 6 is to significantly lengthen our horrible stay in the football wilderness.

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My Blue Heaven

To be honest, John, I want to win the remaining six games. I'll be at each one hoping we win them all.

If we were to win them we'd finish with 8.5 wins, which would mean that we'd likely finish above 15th!

But we won't win our last six. Realistically, we're a chance this weekend and perhaps against Collingwood and Essendon*. I think we'll win one or two more maximum, even though I want to win them all. I think at "worst" (for the tanking advocates) we'll finish with 4.5 wins, thus 15th place and picks 2 and 4.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

OK, but...

IF (I love a good hypothetical)...

we finished 15th with six wins and pick 3, would you be happier than if we finished 15th with 5 wins and pick 2 and 4?

How much value do you place on a h&a win?

Well John I wouldn't go around carrying that the world is over and the club is gone for the next generation...put it that way.

I guess I wouldn't be too upset, you'd expect to get a gun at pick 3...

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

BB2005 gets very excited if we win a game.. it means everything to him.

PS... i fixed Ron Evans right up this week...

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But what about if we have pick 1 7 3 and sadly no murph cos he gone and done gone to Brissie o catch the surf and left us in the lurch? According to some we may as well finish 15th and 6 wins cos its murph or a generation of sadness.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Do tell, Synbad...

Judd #3, Pavlich #4 ... I'd say we could get something pretty useful out of pick #3. Indeed if we do get the spoon and end up with picks #1 and #3, would you expect the club to trade either of those picks?

Wasn't the word around this time last year that the "Deledio" draft was going to be thin? Well I can't see too many teams knocking back any of the guys that went top 5. We'll certainly be a major player come draft day this year in terms of the top 5 picks, so while there are plenty of arguments to promote the benefits of playing for a PP, if we missed it, I don't believe it would be the panacea that many are suggesting. Not ideal granted, but Carlton will still survive.

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