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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:31 pm 
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John Nicholls

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dannyboy wrote:
no one is saying it wouldn't be better PJ but we are saying its not the end if we do not get him.

seems to me that when we place limits on things like ' its him or its doom' we are failing to think clearly

and the best way to get out of this mire is

to think clearly.


I'm not saying it'd be the end either.
Far from it actually.
But it would give us a huge advantage if we did land him.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:32 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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dannyboy wrote:
no one is saying it wouldn't be better PJ but we are saying its not the end if we do not get him.

seems to me that when we place limits on things like ' its him or its doom' we are failing to think clearly

and the best way to get out of this mire is

to think clearly.


What would Judd and Brown mean to this team at the moment...???

Of course players an make a difference.

Where would the Blues be without Johnston.. or Jezza... or Williams????
Replace those 3 with Smith, Hodgkin and Salso.....

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:34 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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ohh well least the post brought out some interesting discussion i still reckon we need Budda Hocking to coach us this week against the Hawks :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:37 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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see already you had to go two!

So Murph on his own - no.

I think he would be great to get him but

if we don't

so @#$%&! what!

there have been plenty we have missed out on

and plenty we have got

its the way it is.

My concern is the all the eggs in one basket - I hope Murph runs like Kwai Chang Caine across the rice paper of TD so those damn eggs of ours don't break!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:41 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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Synbad wrote:
Sure 2 and 4 will help.. but theyre not 1 and 2...
Look BB2005... ill try and use logic as much as i can cos you dont get it... ( has everything been handed to you on a playe so far in life?)

Ok... which club would prefer picks 2 and 4 to 1 and 3???
Just name one....!!!!

now when your president comes out and says that we have the worst list.. with no out and out A graders and players all the way down to Z grade.
when you have won 19 of the last 82 games....


Why would YOU think having the best possible picks in the National Draft and the first crack at an uncontracted player.. isnt not that important???

Just clarify whats going on in your head when youre thinking about where the club is BB2005...

Alkso tell me who your picks #2 #3 #4 are???
surely youre not saying it doesnt make a difference but you dont know who the next 3 picks should be.....

That would be leaving things to the lap of the Gods BB2005...

I can give you 3 id love but i cant give you 4...

Also i can only name one i would REALLY REALLY LOVE!!!!

over to you.... now have a good think about what youre going to write


Sorry I'd rather win games Synbad that's just the way it is.

Nobody likes finishing last, I certainly don't like finishing last, whatever you say it's nothing to be proud of at all, there is a stigma attached to it, it's not a good feeling, there are pride issues at stake, I don't like coming last in anything Synbad...how do you not finish last? Beat Hawthorn! So we don't finish last assuming neither side wins another game and we get picks 2 and 4, yeah we're stuffed:roll:

I don't see how we can lose...you say we need young talent, so here we are, picks 2 and 4 in the draft, so two of the top four best young players in the country, another decent player in the PSD but no Synbad, the future of this club depends totally on Marc Murphy!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:43 pm 
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John Nicholls

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So who are your players that will go Pick 2 and 4?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:48 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Murph amnd Murph (both clones of the original) :wink: In fact I think we should field 22 murphs! Clone away I say -


by the way what's the AFL Rules say about cloning anyway?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:49 pm 
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Geoff Southby

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There are no absolutes, and everyone's a little bit right and a little bit wrong, so the smart money's on this discussion going round and round in ever decreasing circles.

HEY - This is good stuff. I like this discussion, really I do. I think we need the picks, but I like us winning games, I want to play the system, but I hate the system, I think that coming last is a terrible fate, but I think that in reality there is one winner and fifteen losers so if you can't win it doesn't matter where you finish up.

Who would've thought a thorough working knowledge of philosophy was a prerequisite to being a footy follower? Wasn't life simple once.............?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:50 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Intersting to look at last years draft who is the stand out recruit seems to be a strong opionion that its delidio

Not that i feel that BF is a great forum to look at but i have to agree with Delidio http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=183351

SO when the DOrks threw away Pick one last year after owning the last spot for 2004 does anyone respect them more do you even think of the Tigers getting the spoon last year or do you look at the kids they got in last years draft. No Tiger supporter i have spoken to is upset at finishing last and to confess i dont even look at them as bottom line side they have jumped the Dorks who finished 15th the Dogs who have a more advanced list / the pies the bomebrs .. blues ect. Do you even rem that they did get the Spoon last year....i reckon most tiger supporters would be sitting pretty this year and know that they have picked the best 2 Midfielders out of 2004 draft 1 and 3 and Yes Delidio is the gun of 2004 so how does that relate to 2005 well Murphy is the gun of 2005.


Last edited by Wolfe on Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:51 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Ok so go win your games... youve been enjoying winning heaps lately havent you?????
Life is sooo good!!!! .. enjoy my friend!!!!!.. lets beat the Hawks.. get not the stand out but another... and someone else... and also not the best uncontracted player in the league.
Leave the standout and the best uncontracted player to a team with 3 All Australians... and 2 super rookies..


Look they have Everrit, Mitchell,. Hodge Williams (all a chance for All Australian honours)... they also have Roughead and Franklin...plus you want to give them thios years best standout kid too.. cos our list is so good we want to help them out some more????

:lol:


Lets get this through your head... even Hawthorn have a better list than ours .....!!!!

We have the worst list in the AFL..

Which means we will continue to not win games....

But yes youll be praying miracles happen.......

Cos thats how you are.... crossing your fingers feet and toes.. rabbits foot in your pocket...careful to not step under ladders or cross the path of a black cat... seeing some witch for a winning spell.....hoping it all comes together for you...

Wake up!!!!

Life doesnt work like that....

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:53 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:59 am
Posts: 1971
dannyboy wrote:
no one is saying it wouldn't be better PJ but we are saying its not the end if we do not get him.

seems to me that when we place limits on things like ' its him or its doom' we are failing to think clearly

and the best way to get out of this mire is

to think clearly.


This 'it's him or it's doom' was started by BB2005.

Clear thinking in 2005 draft if Murphy is available,

Pick 1 Best player and leader at your club.
Pick2 Second best player.

This is the widely held ASSESSMENT :!: Denial of this is emotional blubbery.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:54 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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phoenix johnson wrote:
So who are your players that will go Pick 2 and 4?

He doesnt have players that will be drafted 2 and 4.. thats the recruiters lot!!!!... they can find us a Judd or a Brown surely!!! eh BB2095????


BB2095 cos you will keep changing your nick till then as our comeback year.....

I wont be alive to see it though....

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:54 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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79Vintage wrote:
The team who loses this match has the opportunity to win Grand Finals within 7-10 years, the winner of this match will not be in contention in the next generation. Such is the talent, quality and leadership of Marc Murphy. He could be our Michael Voss. It's a big call and a lot of weight to put on a young player, but ask a club recruiter and I doubt any could dismiss such a suggestion outright.

However, if we finish with the wooden spoon and Murphy goes to Brisbane under the Father/Son rule, it will be a wooden spoon with no silver lining.

It's a chance we have to take :!:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:56 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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Hang on a sec..

Those players you mentioned as possible all-Australians yet the Hawks are where they are......so in other words their better players have been their best players yet they're still shit?

I don't think our list is worse than theirs in fact I think ours is better Synbad.

Their good players have had good years, ours haven't been so good yet we're half a game behind them. I believe we are better than they are. Hawthorn are mollycoddled in the media for throwing in the kids and haven't faced any scrutiny that they should have...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:59 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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79Vintage wrote:
dannyboy wrote:
no one is saying it wouldn't be better PJ but we are saying its not the end if we do not get him.

seems to me that when we place limits on things like ' its him or its doom' we are failing to think clearly

and the best way to get out of this mire is

to think clearly.


This 'it's him or it's doom' was started by BB2005.

Clear thinking in 2005 draft if Murphy is available,

Pick 1 Best player and leader at your club.
Pick2 Second best player.

This is the widely held ASSESSMENT :!: Denial of this is emotional blubbery.


Really Vintage?

Perhaps have a re-read of the original post in this thread:

"The team who loses this match has the opportunity to win Grand Finals within 7-10 years, the winner of this match will not be in contention in the next generation. Such is the talent, quality and leadership of Marc Murphy. He could be our Michael Voss. It's a big call and a lot of weight to put on a young player, but ask a club recruiter and I doubt any could dismiss such a suggestion outright.

However, if we finish with the wooden spoon and Murphy goes to Brisbane under the Father/Son rule, it will be a wooden spoon with no silver lining."

You wrote that. If that's not overly dramatic then what is?! "Not in contention for a generation", "wooden spoon with no silver lining" Vintage, as far as I'm concerned that's bordering on a pretty gloomy forecast if we don't get Murphy?!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:59 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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yes they are where they are cos theyre not trying too hard to win games this year....
their supporters understand.

What theyre doing and they have said it openly "Were following the StKilda model and bring in young talent and when a player suits what we need in trade time we will go after him"

The fruits will be had in 3 years not now....

But they still have a better list than us....

No ifs no buts...

Were the crappiest!!!!

Ask Collo...

Now there is a realist....

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:29 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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I hate being last and hate the thought of tanking games, but I also remember where we have come from as a club.

When I think about this, I hate thinking even more about how far we have fallen and what we once were compared to what we are now..

Because of the way the AFL is now and the way talent is shared around via the draft, I hate contemplating what we once were compared to what we are now even more than the prospect of a spoon,...

You know, we gradually lost our star players one by one after the 95 flag. We did get some replacements that were pretty good for a while, but we lost the Williams, Bradleys Silvagnis Kernahan Dean etc etc.

Fact was that for what ever reason, we never really replaced these players with anything near equal talent. It was a slow decline, slowed due to patch ups along the way, but a decline nevertheless, with a huge crash at the end,a train wreck, or maybe 2 or 3 train wrecks with a series of terrorist bombs thrown into the carnage afterwards just for good measure.

In our last really good year, 2000 some on this forum had us a flag chellenger if it wasnt for Kouta's injury.

In other words, some think that we might have won with a fit Kouta.

This may or may not have been true, but the reality was that we were a team than had lost depth.

If we had a couple more A grade stars in 2000, we might have been able to cover Koutas loss a lot better than we did. But in fact, we were a genuine finals team team in a state of decline, covering it very well, not many were reading it, but the writing was on the wall.

Where was the A grade talent that we needed going to come from?

So where is all this going?

Well in 2005, we have the worst list in the afl. We have a Kouta that is a shadow of himself and maybe a couple of possible A grade players in the making. God we are awful.

We desperately desperately need maybe 5 or 6 A grade players to get anywhere near where we were. Even 2 or 3 would start to make a big difference.

We dont want B plus or A minus players, we need A grade players,

Anything else is a compromise that will cost us in the future.

So how do we get the talent we need?

I dont want to be a Collingwood, a bits and pieces team that has a bit of a revival, has a shot at a flag against obviously vastly superior opposition - then collapses in a screaming heap.

I want to build a top line team here, with the best possible picks that we can.

The only way to do that under the current system is to finish last.

Murphy is the best prospect we have in 2005 of getting talent of the calibre of Williams / Silvagni / Ratten etc back into the side.

We desperately, desperately need talent of this type at Carlton right now.

When you read about him, it does look like he is the kind of player that can bring that X factor to Carlton.

True, he wont save us himself, but we absolutely have to get players of that talent level into the club.

Yes, picks 2 and 4 arent massively worse than 1 and 3, but they are still worse.

We will rebuild and go forward with worse but still good picks, but it would probably mean the difference between being a rough finals challenger that ends up being thumped, but has a good season overall, a nearly there team that peaked at number 2.

Do you want that???

Or do you want to build a team than has a real chance of winning a 17th flag.

Yes, theres a chance we mightnt get murphy, but its we need to put ourselves in the best position to get what we really do need.

I remember a few years back, Stan Alves talking about tanking games and getting first round draft picks.

He said that no one would ever admit to wanting to tank games, but deep inside, by god a coach would secretly really, really want to grab those A grade picks even if it meant finishing last to do it.

It hurts me so badly to say this, but I know what I really want, the best quality we can possibly get, even if it means that we win a spoon to get it.

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Last edited by blueman on Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:42 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Quote:
The only way to do that under the current system is to finish last.


These are the statements of absolutes that are so frustrating.

Finishing last is not the ONLY way to win a premiership. It is one possible way (that is yet to be proven).

Only one wooden spoon team has won a premiership in the last 10 years. That is Brisbane, and in their Draft after getting the wooden spoon they recruited with their first 3 picks, Des Headland, Craig Bolton and Aaron Shattock all now playing for other clubs.

So no, it is not the ONLY way.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:44 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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And in the early nineties they drafted Nigel Lappin and Justin Leppitsch with picks 2 and 4 in 1992/1993 drafts.........they've turned out to be OK :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:45 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:59 am
Posts: 1971
Blues2005 wrote:
79Vintage wrote:
dannyboy wrote:
no one is saying it wouldn't be better PJ but we are saying its not the end if we do not get him.

seems to me that when we place limits on things like ' its him or its doom' we are failing to think clearly

and the best way to get out of this mire is

to think clearly.


This 'it's him or it's doom' was started by BB2005.

Clear thinking in 2005 draft if Murphy is available,

Pick 1 Best player and leader at your club.
Pick2 Second best player.

This is the widely held ASSESSMENT :!: Denial of this is emotional blubbery.


Really Vintage?

Perhaps have a re-read of the original post in this thread:

"The team who loses this match has the opportunity to win Grand Finals within 7-10 years, the winner of this match will not be in contention in the next generation. Such is the talent, quality and leadership of Marc Murphy. He could be our Michael Voss. It's a big call and a lot of weight to put on a young player, but ask a club recruiter and I doubt any could dismiss such a suggestion outright.

However, if we finish with the wooden spoon and Murphy goes to Brisbane under the Father/Son rule, it will be a wooden spoon with no silver lining."

You wrote that. If that's not overly dramatic then what is?! "Not in contention for a generation", "wooden spoon with no silver lining" Vintage, as far as I'm concerned that's bordering on a pretty gloomy forecast if we don't get Murphy?!


Yes that post is emotive but it is not dramatic, it is based on judgement. If you want to win grand finals you need elite leaders, every premiership side has at least one. The way Murphy plays inspires a side, of the great young players in next year's draft, maybe one or two might have this quality, Murphy has it, end of story.

Synbad sees it, Phoenix Johnson sees it, I see it and people in football clubs know it. We won't win a premiership without a player who has these qualities, Murphy is our first such player. If we are ruthless that bloke from St. Kilda could be our second.


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