Good post Melvey.

It all comes down to whether we think we have enough second tier players already there.

I like Brown. Showed in just his first year he is tough and can handle pressure. Faded a bit in the second half of the year but just go back to the WC game and you can see a kid who looked more like a 3rd year player than a first year player.

Grigg = quality, tough and can run and carry. Good size too for a Mid.

Russell is much maligned in the eyes of many posters here, but he has progressed this year doing his job as a defensive HFF, who when we have the ball can run hard to present across HFF. He'll hopefully develop more in the coming years and we know he is well built, tall for a Mid and has some pace by foot.

Anderson is another who I think could develop. has the right attitude from what I have seen. Presented the best at draft camp, has a bit of toe, is hard at it.

These are the types who need to be our Young, Ladson etc.

Question is do we have enough?

And are we happy with Thornton, Jamison and Bower down back? Remember the Hawks back six was not loaded with exceptional KPPs (although Hodge is a star who plays out of his height division).

I think the MC want Waite to be our Hodge.

But who is Hawthorn's CHB? Hodge, who is 184cm. Has Waite not come on in leaps and bounds as that loose defender who reads the play and intercepts and then carries it out of defense?

And what other talls do the Hawks have down back? Gilham and Croad is about it. We have Thornton, Jamison and Bower. The latter 2 will be very good players in 2-3 years.

And what of CHF? We are going to get Warnock, so in 2-3 years the rucks are Warnock and Hampson who we have signed for 3 years. So Kreuzer goes to CHF. What we need is a FF for development - don't be surprised if Edwards becomes > Fisher in 2-3 years.

Lessons to be learnt from the losers;
1. Don't eat your lunch during a game in full view of TV cameras no matter how far in front you are
2. Take the same game that got you 23/24 wins to the GF rather than show ponying about like you can win it when ever you feel the desire.
3. Players should not brag about going back-to-back in front of anyone, let alone J.Akermanis.

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end of message

Ild give them Thornton for #16 now if they want the deal

Ahh, no... Blueboy_Dan was right.

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No matter how long it takes Carlton to rebuild, they will still win a premiership before Essendon* and Collingwood.

So Caz are you telling us that after 6 years at the bottom our 4/5/6 year plan didn't start till last year? Surely we have had some kind of plan prior to that? At the very least we had lots of high draft picks that should produce a very talented side. I mean if we have a change of coach surely that doesn't mean that everything is back to year zero. Ratten won't necessarily be there in 4 years time, surely if we chose to upgrade our coach it doesn't all go back to the start again. At this rate we have a 15 year plan where players will play their entire career without being part of the end of the plan.

I rather hope we are 4 years into our plan to build a team which coincides with our top draft picks. Wayne Hughes has been there since 04 and he is the main man because his judgement will decide our future. If he has got it substantially right, and we have some luck, good times ahead.

having said that the Hawks started their 4 year plan with Hodge Croad Crawford and a few others on their list, so ahead of where we were four years ago in terms of the future.

The lesson from Saturday was not that Geelong threw it away. They missed 4 shots they should have got including two sitters. 10 points were rushed and many other shots were hurried because they couldn't beat the Hawks zone. They failed totally to do anything about Hodge, and when the Hawks were under fierce pressure they stood up, when it was the Cats turn they fell away. I don't like the Hawks but they were terrific and exposed a number of geelong players.

The lesson from the Hawks is get as many high draft picks as possible and use them well - The only players the Hawks had from other sides were guys they got for next to nothing.

Use late picks, every now and again you might get a Sewell or a Young as opposed to Ackland, Chambers, Longmuir, Saddo etc.

Be innovative and creative in planning and execution.

Develop players. At Carlton we have recruited a number of athletes which I don't mind but we how is their development - Benji Aisake - backwards; Setanta Hammo marking time

Skills - Why is Walks still a dreadful kick? Do we have serious innovation within our development and skills area? Do we have experts on the biomechanics of kicking and experts on execution etc The evidence suggests not, maybe that will come in later in our many year plan?

We still appear to be old fashioned in many areas. If we have money then spend it on varied support staff (ie not just retired Blues players who are mates of Sticks) with a range of skills- think outside the square. Look at psychology, sports science, new ways of teaching, get some creative, imaginative people in.

Really when you look at how our development team was set up, and the tasks asked of them, including Teague being playing coach, and how our senior coaching appointment was made (maybe Ratts was the best but were we exhaustive, did we actually look at anyone else?) you just wonder how forward thinking we are.

Nice work, Ciccio. Especially re forwards and how the hardness and ability of Hadley is underrestimated around here.

Solutions?

- Krooz forward in 2009 when Robbie W comes on board
- Sidebottom or Ziebell at pick 6 for some desperately needed goalkickers on the list
- Getting Hadley on the park!
- Aaron Jospeh to have a big pre-season so we have a quick, hard at it goal sneak to help out Eddie.

Dennis Pagan didn't have a GAMEPLAN let alone a plan for the future. Brett Ratten has stepped in and now we're planning. simple as that.

There are certainly lessons but we can over-analyse. Hawks were 2 years ago where we are now. We're going along nicely and it does take time to physically develop. That's the main area sides such as Geelong and Hawthorn kick us. Mature bodies.

Good call Jim, and Gerry Atric made some good points too.

At the end of the day 2009 will give us a better idea where we're at. If Ratten is any good then we will make the Eight. I don't think he has instilled a working game plan yet, we certainly don't look as well drilled as some of the better clubs. This is to be expected because he has only been in the chair 5 mins. But this is also why I suggest by the end of 2009 he'd want to have us playing a tighter brand of foot than we did in 2008.

This year we won a lot of games simply through an incredible ability to come back from 5 goals behind late in games. Credit where it's due, Ratten obviously has the ability to make the players believe they can always win under any circumstance. That is a terrific achievement, but we now need to see him implement a great game plan.

just on the Hawks and how they progressed to success

Judd made a comment in one of his columns, that the Eagles run to the premiership began 2 years before they won it when they won the last 7 games of the 2004 season

The Hawks won the last 4 games of the 2006 season and this set them up for a great 2007 and subsequent 2008

The Blues this year finished the year winning 3 of the last 6. If fact Carlton were only able to win 2 games in a row all season (twice). We are not showing the form required to take the premiership in 2 years.

If I were to take a stab at where we are at as a team, I would say we are at least 3 years away. We will know if we have progressed, if we can string together 3-4 wins in a row next year. I think it is important to know this so we recruit appropriately for a tilt on 2011.

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The glass is neither half full nor half empty. Rather the glass is twice as big than required.

I think it is safe to say that the arrival of Richard Pratt to the Presidency plus the signing of Swann, Icke, Ratten and Judd to CFC is the line in the sand for the rebuilding of CFC.

So you can call that the start of 2007 but Swann and Icke only arrived in March and obviously Ratts reign commenced in July (?) so the 1st chance to do anything about list management came at the end of 2007.

So realistically I think we are 1 year into the 4-6 year rebirth of CFC as a flag contender. Having picked up Murphy and Gibbs prior to 2007 certainly helps our cause.

CFC under Pagan did not have the resources, money, stability or Presidential leadership to commence a meaningful push forward with a sound plan for the Club. Simple fact.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

Lesson learnt:

1. Get 2 round 1 picks for Thornton from them.
2. ... nah that's it.

And another of your posts you made in Talking Recruiting.

Hampson is already a bust and no Renouf.

A smarter Monday Expert might have mentioned Tippett v Renouf when their careers are only two minutes old.

But you can only see what's in front of your face and used it to criticise our ruck by comparing him to Hawthorn's Renouf.

Not sure what you are on about here. In three years we will get an idea of who is likely to have been the better choice between Hammo and Renouf. I hope it is Hammo and I personally think it should be given his outstanding atheticism but either way it will be crucial. This year I think Hammo has marked time and I would hope for accelerated improvement from him. It concerns me that our under resourced and inexperienced development team may not be successful at developing athletes with little footy background. Maybe we will see quick improvement from the players who are more athletes than footballers, maybe we won't. Can't see where either statement contradicts the other or where either is particularly outrageous. Anyway, keep trawling through my posts, there's some gold there.

Everyone progresses to the Holy Grail differently. Been quite a few in the lat 15 years that have gone from spooners to premiers/Grand Finalists too in 3 years.

If we're lucky, we can do to the Gold Coast what Hawthorn did to the Kangaroos.

I'd agree with Cazzesman. No team will EVER be as bad as we were for the period 2002 to 2006. The only semblance of rebuilding that occurred was recruiting. It's why I roll my eyes at anyone who mentions tanking (not good enough) or people that think we have salary cap problems (not enough good players).

We still have a fair bit of work to do before we get the team we want, and this Gold Coast rubbish isn't going to help.

We have taken more steps forward in 2008 than we did for 2002 to 2007 combined.

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Get comfortable being uncomfortable

Stop talking sense Jim, thats twice now on one page. We're all meant to be slashing our wrists because we're not Hawthorn, last year it was Geelong

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In 2007, people were saying that the blueprint for Geelomg's success was having a core of players with6 or 7 seasons under their belts - 150 game players..

Looks like that theory has been shot to pieces.

Geelong will be still a force to be reckoned with next year - but this loss will take the edge off their confidence a bit - they wont make the GF in 2009.

Hawthorn wont win back to back flags either.

Instead, the premiership race will now even up a lot more...

Hawthorns flag ahead of their time with a very young side will be copied by another young side who will come from nowhere before too long..

In many ways, The form of Hawthorn slipped under the radar. They hastened slowly and peaked at the correct time - while Geelong by comparison went off the boil a bit. If Footscray kicked better and made more of their opportunities - they might have beaten Geelong in the prelim - But Hawthorn steamrolled St Kilda..

Their strong performances in the last 6 weeks or so were underestimated by most people.

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My Blue Heaven