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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:42 pm 
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formerly p(12)terg
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Interesting to see the number of first-gamers selected for the Blions: 34 Bradd Dalziell, 42 Pearce Hanley, 12 James Hawksley ... whereas we're not blooding a one!

Here are the ins and outs from when we played them last time (R8 )
Blions: Out = Mitchell Clark, Scott Harding, Josh Drummond
In = Matthew Moody, James Hawksley, Lachlan Henderson, Robert Copeland, Bradd Dalziell, Pearce Hanley

Our guys: Out = Haddles, Ackland, Carlos, WIGGINS
In = Walks, Hammer, Joey, Arma, Scottie, TBird, Hoops

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:42 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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cj69 wrote:
TianaCon wrote:

Did Mark Riley play AFL?


Nah, but a premiership assistant coach with the Blues

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:42 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Dalziel has played a few games. :?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:46 pm 
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John James
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Jarusa wrote:
Dalziel has played a few games. :?


Has currently played 5 Jars & atm is the equal leading average possession getter for Brissie :shock: Good start for the lad.

http://finalsiren.com/Fixture.asp?Seaso ... D=2#Player

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:06 pm 
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Ken Hunter

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keogh wrote:



Why not play Aisake
He is 200cm can run like the wind and he may suprise. You cant discount it. Playing on an AFL ground may bring the best out of him. You cant discount it.





..yer right, i can't discount it.. ..miracles do happen.. ..but yer basing this miracle on him being a tall runner?, on a larger ground??.. ..by all reports he struggles in the 3rds..

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:22 pm 
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Rod McGregor

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Quote:
Why not play Aisake
He is 200cm can run like the wind and he may suprise. You cant discount it. Playing on an AFL ground may bring the best out of him. You cant discount it.


How many VFL games have you seen Aisake play?

Even Ive seen one and Aisake was jogging around like he didnt care/know what he was doing... (and from all reports this hasnt changed?)

What has he done to deserve a game?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:22 pm 
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Horrie Clover

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Fast forward to Round 21 2009. If Fisher, Thornton and Carazzo are all in the side, we will have gone backwards. If two of them are in, we will have made no progress. If one is in, we'll be knocking on the door of the eight. If all are gone, we'll be in the eight.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:35 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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p(12)terg wrote:



TianaCon wrote:
Who are you going to take advice from? A real lawyer (for instance) or some bloke standing next to you at the bbq giving you his 2 cents worth?
Only if that lawyer is a member of TC :wink:


The lawyer probably wouldn't give any legal advice over a bbq.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:42 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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DownUnderChick wrote:
TruBlueBrad wrote:
I still find it amazing some are so insistent they know better than the MC when it comes to picking a side, how the players are performing and how to build a list.


hey brad, didn't you know that keogh is Chairman of selectors in conjunction with the Sailor Man and the team physch in cj. :-D

Budzy, what surgery are you talking about for Jamo? I thought the shoulder was good.


Yeah and youre in charge of the oranges.. and taking home the washing...

Each of us has a role in doing what we do best.....

and dont forget OMO is $5 a box this week...if you buy 2 boxes you get it for 8 bux ... ok???

Hop to it....

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Last edited by Synbad on Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:43 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

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Blues2005 wrote:
cj69 wrote:
keogh wrote:
NO Anderson
No Aisake
No Austin


I reckon Thornton can count himslef very lucky to be playing
Ditto Russell


Browne and Armfield are lucky as well based on their past fortnight


Once again in a meaningless contest for us we have gone conservative


These games should be an opportunity for someone to be given a go

Another pissweak selection flower from our MC


Don't mind Browne & Armfield staying in, they need to the experience. I just hope they get the game time.

I do wonder why some of Anderson, Blackwell, Joseph, Pfieffer, Austin, Jacobs, Aisake, Hadley, Jackson haven't been given a run.

We have only won 3 out of our past 8 games and were thrashed last week. Surely before the end of the year we need to look at other players.

For me Thornton, Russell, Fisher are unbelievably lucky.


People need to get over Aisake. He won't be getting a game this year (if at all). I doubt he's ever even been seriously discussed at Match Committee, given his apparent struggles in the VFL/VFL Reserves. He's certainly not going to play as long as Cloke, Kreuzer and Hampson are in the one team, as you can't go in with 4 talls like that. Cloke isn't going to be dropped. Sometimes you just need to accept reality. This way you won't be disappointed when reality strikes again. You don't have to like it, but there's nothing anyone on here can do about it. Just move on.

cj, of the players you mentioned, and going from the VFL reports, the only player on that list who could justifiably call himself unlucky not to be playing is Blackwell. Hadley would probably be playing if he wasn't recovering from injuries which have killed his season. Austin and Anderson have had a taste, there is more to come from them, no rush. Jacobs and Joseph are rookies, which I think you well-know, so they couldn't be playing even if we wanted them to be playing. Jackson and Pfieffer aren't playing well enough to be picked. Aisake I discussed above.

We have had a pretty good season, remembering from where we have come, without most of the players you mentioned above playing. We must have been doing something right.


I don't think we should agree with whatever the MC are doing with Aisake. There's been good reason why ppl have suggested giving him a go...and will continue to do so. Call it something to do with accountability or call it exposure of a weakness in our development dept with Lappin and Teague (refer to the Aisake thread in Talking Players).

I too want to see Aisake in the ones. Lets see what he's got.

I know you are right that we may be flogging a dead horse. The point is whilst I am flogging a dead horse, I will continue to flog our off field failings and failures too, and the disappointment they bring to the table.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:51 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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eric pascoe wrote:
Fast forward to Round 21 2009. If Fisher, Thornton and Carazzo are all in the side, we will have gone backwards. If two of them are in, we will have made no progress. If one is in, we'll be knocking on the door of the eight. If all are gone, we'll be in the eight.


I don't subscribe to that logic - some players are used in roles because of a lack of other options. Putting the super Geelong team to the side, there are players with weaknesses all over the place who can still have a great impact if the Coach / list / overall team can be maximised. Any one of the above 3 could be part of the next very good Carlton team.

There sure has been some dud Premiership players.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:54 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

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cj69 wrote:
TheSwan wrote:
cj69 wrote:
keogh wrote:
I have never seen Thornton kick it over 50 m. He gives a good contest when he is next to his opponent.
But you need to do more now as a defender(run,carry and kick it forwards)
Thornton isnt capable of doing it

He has been ordinary the last 2 weeks



he is lucky to be playing and Austin is extremley unlucky given his efforts against North Ballarat


I would of picked Austin to play on Brown this week (replacing Thornton) and Pfieffer to replace Russell. I would of also changed Hadley for Fisher but probably needs another run. Add that to the ins of Bower and Houlihan and reckon its a pretty handy side.


I thought our tanking days were over?!!?..

Putting Austin on Brown would almost end the young mans career.
Waite is the only man available who may be able to do a decent job.


Can't agree Swann.

I think Austin would do okay. Even if beaten he would get something out of it. Even the best get beaten. Waite isn't the person for me, he isn't a body person and needs to run free. Since Austin isn't even selected I believe Walker is our best option and should be given a go.


I don't think Waite is our best option on Brown; it has been proven to be the case. Austin would nearly have just as much chance on him. Both too light on in weight and strength. Where's Setanta when you need him...oh well, we're not playing finals, so it's not critical.

Well if it's not critical, then put Jamo in for surgery, and try Aisake on Brown.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:59 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

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Big Kahuna Boot wrote:
keogh wrote:



Why not play Aisake
He is 200cm can run like the wind and he may suprise. You cant discount it. Playing on an AFL ground may bring the best out of him. You cant discount it.





..yer right, i can't discount it.. ..miracles do happen.. ..but yer basing this miracle on him being a tall runner?, on a larger ground??.. ..by all reports he struggles in the 3rds..


That's not because he's not capable. How about pointing the bone to the development coaches who have done nothing to match what Pagan was getting out of him...or was that Mitchell?

Nothing to lose, we may actually expose the culprits who cannot move players forward; players that doing better last year. Maybe if Ratts coahed Aisake we could see something sparkle.

Give him, yes the runner (and you can't just simply dismiss that quality Big Kahuna Boot) on a proper AFL ground instead of hose @#$%&! mud heaps runners can't show their stuff.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:04 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

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cj69 wrote:
TianaCon wrote:
Just a question to those that wanted a couple of the kids in for the next 2 weeks. What happens if they were given the 2 remaining games & showed absolutely nothing & we get smashed? What's 2 games going to give them in that scenario?


Did it hurt last year?


Or the year before that?

Bower wasn't setting the world on fire when given a go...shit neither were most of the players who have been given a taste of Senior footy with Carlton; it's a development year! Right?

Look it's about a taste. These kids will make up some of the shortfall they experienced; it's a reality check. Kids wont need the psychologist after it like some suggest, they move forward and get stronger over the preseason...because they know they need to.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:08 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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bondiblue wrote:
cj69 wrote:
TheSwan wrote:
cj69 wrote:
keogh wrote:
I have never seen Thornton kick it over 50 m. He gives a good contest when he is next to his opponent.
But you need to do more now as a defender(run,carry and kick it forwards)
Thornton isnt capable of doing it

He has been ordinary the last 2 weeks



he is lucky to be playing and Austin is extremley unlucky given his efforts against North Ballarat


I would of picked Austin to play on Brown this week (replacing Thornton) and Pfieffer to replace Russell. I would of also changed Hadley for Fisher but probably needs another run. Add that to the ins of Bower and Houlihan and reckon its a pretty handy side.


I thought our tanking days were over?!!?..

Putting Austin on Brown would almost end the young mans career.
Waite is the only man available who may be able to do a decent job.


Can't agree Swann.

I think Austin would do okay. Even if beaten he would get something out of it. Even the best get beaten. Waite isn't the person for me, he isn't a body person and needs to run free. Since Austin isn't even selected I believe Walker is our best option and should be given a go.


I don't think Waite is our best option on Brown; it has been proven to be the case. Austin would nearly have just as much chance on him. Both too light on in weight and strength. Where's Setanta when you need him...oh well, we're not playing finals, so it's not critical.

Well if it's not critical, then put Jamo in for surgery, and try Aisake on Brown.


I still have to disagree with you guys.

Forget weight and strength. No one on our list (not even Setanta) can match it with Brown. Austin has not even played 10 games and although I think one day he may be a good player, he has not shown much at this level. Brown would be way to smart and powerful. Austin would be destroyed to pulp. Imagine Brown v Austin one one deep in attack (you can guarantee Brown would take him there) and tell me honestly you think he would do a better job than Waite. I just don't see it.

I stick by Waite being our best option closely followed by Jamo. Don't forget what a hiding our midfield took when Brown kicked 10 last time at the Gabba. No one would have stopped that.

I do like that you have so much faith in Austin. I hope he turns out to be a great player!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:11 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

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Blue Vain wrote:
Who in the team has the required attitude, training form, the ability to follow instructions and perform designated roles etc? Who is a team player and who can accept criticism without sooking up and being a destructive influence?
Who can play only one role in the team and who struggles to understand set plays and their role at stoppages? Who is carrying an injury and who struggles to perform with the slightest niggle? Who has been diligent in their rehab and who is taking shortcuts and leading others astray?

Those criteria are all important factors in the make up of a team yet they are the questions that only the MC would have the answers to.
By all means have an opinion on selection but lets also realise that the MC are armed with far more knowledge than the average punter.

I would suggest that if anyone "deserved" a game, they would be getting one!


True.

That's why I expect them to get things right! I

'm right they're wrong for allowing some of our stock to go backwards with the new Development Coaches. :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:13 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

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TianaCon wrote:
cj69 wrote:
TianaCon wrote:
Another question.

How many on TC have actually played footy at AFL level?

Cos I haven't. But those on the MC have (all of em) & I would be pretty confident in backing their judgement as to what is required.

Who are you going to take advice from? A real lawyer (for instance) or some bloke standing next to you at the bbq giving you his 2 cents worth?



I played the old U/18's, the reserves in 1989 before being told I was useless, does that count?

Did Mark Riley play AFL?


:lol:

In answer to your questions cj.

1) No, it doesn't

2) Don't think so, but I did mean to say either played &/or coached at AFL level.

As BV says, these guys are the ones armed with ALL the info, not us & we should let them do their job.

As a professional myself, the one thing I cannot stand is someone who has never done what I do, telling me how to do my job & I feel fairly confident most, including you, would feel the same.


Sometimes people on the outer can see things more clearer than the one stuck in their professional clutter...I've seen it before, plenty of times.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:13 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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The big difference in the 'playing kids' argument in 2008 is that we're already actually playing them. In 2007 as the tank was on they got a go, but in 2006 it was only when Pagan's arms were twisted that Bower, Smith and Jackson got a game. The season was over well and truly but the Club wasn't rolling out the kids. Last year a number of debuts happened at the end of the year. This year we've already had as many debuts and the team is already young - there are very few if any spots being filled by certain-to-be-delisted players so its not like we're not developing.

Consider the Aisake argument - I saw a number of VFL games last year that had me excited but we already have Hammer and Kreuze in the team. You want 3 young rucks? Consider Anderson - given games in 2 of his first 2 years which is great, but he's currently either working on something or purely behind Armfield and Browne (both first year players).

We're already playing the kids. A whole heap of them. A number of the players some of you are pining for have already got a line through their name so there is no developmental benefit to our Club to play them at the expense of say a Browne.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:14 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

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Blue Vain wrote:
From memory Mark Riley was an All Australian Under 18 coach and had quite a bit of success in WA.
He was highly sought within the AFL before signing with Melbourne.
He is an excellent lateral thinker and offers a wealth of knowledge for our kids.


So he should have been the development coach this year!!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:22 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

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TianaCon wrote:
cj69 wrote:
TianaCon wrote:
cj69 wrote:
TianaCon wrote:
Another question.

How many on TC have actually played footy at AFL level?

Cos I haven't. But those on the MC have (all of em) & I would be pretty confident in backing their judgement as to what is required.

Who are you going to take advice from? A real lawyer (for instance) or some bloke standing next to you at the bbq giving you his 2 cents worth?



I played the old U/18's, the reserves in 1989 before being told I was useless, does that count?

Did Mark Riley play AFL?


:lol:

In answer to your questions cj.

1) No, it doesn't

2) Don't think so, but I did mean to say either played &/or coached at AFL level.

As BV says, these guys are the ones armed with ALL the info, not us & we should let them do their job.

As a professional myself, the one thing I cannot stand is someone who has never done what I do, telling me how to do my job & I feel fairly confident most, including you, would feel the same.


I know how you feel. I write some posts based on my profession and people dismiss them without the knowledge I have in my field. However, this is a forum and is based on opinion (and emotion), and thats what it is, opinion and we all have them.


Exactly cj. Your views & mine are simply opinions, not fact. The MC are the ones with the facts.

When people say that such & such is unlucky to not get a go & so & so is very lucky to hold their spot, they are opinion, not fact.

And to say the MC have got it wrong is also opinion & not fact.

That's all I'm saying really. Thank you for your assistance. :wink:


Pragmatically speaking, the MC offer opinions like you and I about so and so (you better believe it).

Where they are different to us, is that can turn their opinion into fact about so and so; we can't. That doesn't make them right; they just stick to their beliefs from the information they have and make the decision regardless of what we think.

The truth is that they don't have all the information...much of it is inside the brain of the players. Coaches can't make every player click every week; that's because they don't have all the information. They try too, and wished they could all press the right buttons; but they can't.

We as a club have a lot of improving to make, and those on the MC have too. They will be the first to admit that, especially a first year coach. And for that reason,, I know, despite them being in the inner sanctum, they are not always right.

Don't take anything for granted, the MC are not perfect....remember D. Pagan? I.Stewart? T.Watson? etcetera, they were part of an MC too.

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