Good debate Molsey and Synbad!

My question is though... just because Hammer is playing Bullants, does that necessarily mean he is not developing? Yeah it would be nice to have him playing seniors, but for a kid who has come to footy late - is it necessarily hampering his development to play Bullants for the majority of the year? Is he still learning and progressing there? River Rodent and others rae in a far better position to judge than me.

I'd be critical (as is Molsey) of the Edwards thing. Every time the team actually kick the ball to Edwards he gets it. Problem is that they kick the ball to Fev, and after two weeks of this Ratts gets jack of the fact Edwards isn't getting the ball and drops him again. That gets back to Synners; argument about forward line structures (or lack of). I'd argue we leave Jake in there until the team actually learns to kick the ball to him... they'll get it eventually.

Against all of that, there has been good development in some of our youngsters. I'd list Grigg, Bower, and Jamison as the best examples. Eddie is probably playing better too, and we've seen enough from Armfield and Browne to suggest they are doing well under the Ratten reign.

In the end, Ratts got a two year contract and talked finals in 2009. So I'm judging him on 2009, not 2008. He'll need to develop a better functioning forward line (I expect that Kreuzer will be better next year and that Edwards is given more opportunity), and a ruck that can be competitive (once again, Kreuzer will be better in his cameos, we may recruit someone, and Hammer should be better able to compete on a week to week basis).

So we'll give brickbats to Ratts on the forward line at the moment. But equally, he should get bouquets for the defence (along with Crosisca) which has functioned beyond the expectations of almost all of us. Midfield is probably about where it should be, although I hope that Gibbs is used more as a weapon than a defensive midfielder sooner rather than later. If not, play him as a half forward flank, and see whether the team kicks it to him as a second forward option.

So I appreciate the reservations, but as I say, I'm going to make full judgment on 2009 and not 2008.

Yeah............i'm a bit with you and a bit against you.

I think Ratts has done pretty well and would be above a "pass" mark as his first year in senior coaching.
Comparing him to Pagan, he is hands down killing him all the way.

But i totally aggree with you with regards to him clearly having favourites.

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"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

This has been an obvious and glaring mistake by the Match Committee this year.

Kreuzer should be playing the majority of the game deep in the forward line (and out of the goalsquare) - as evidenced by the Port Adelaide game, with 5 minutes a quarter on the ball.

We could have still been alternating Cloke and Hampson off the bench - thus giving Hampson more games than he has been given this season.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Spot on Agro.

Also, everyone is speaking like this year has finished. If it was, these discussions would be relevant.

However, in 6 weeks time, IF we have not won another game (I think we can win another 4), I think all the positive Ratten posts may sound a little different.

So forget about waiting to judge Ratts on 2009, lets first wait until the end of 2008.

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The Future is Bright, the Future is Navy Blue.

Not sure that stat is a fair indicator, Molsey.

The debutants this year were:
Kreuzer - would have been played by previous coach, or indeed any other AFL coach
Browne - the youngest debutant other than Kreuzer at 19 year old, but he was a 2nd round draft pick. Similar to Grigg who was played last year early in the year before breaking his collarbone.
Armfield - 21 year old with a mature, hardened body able to fill a gaping hole as a small defender
Richard Hadley - 25 year old premiership player
Judd - enough said
Pfeiffer - 20 year old who has already had 2 years AFL development - a 3rd year player in reality.
Edwards - still finding his feet in AFL - hard to say that this year's games show he should have played in previous years.

The common thread in this year's drafting is that we went with age and experience, with only 2 real newbies. In previous years, we've had quite a few bottom-aged players or project players like Hampson who needed time to develop. And in previous years, we went quite tall, and those guys were always going to need extra time to grow into their bodies. Hard to compare purely on the debut stat because of that.

whether he makes it or not things are improving - and not just because of 'organic growth'.

At the start fo the year Ratts mentioned the defense and percentage as two key areas he wanted to focus on. Regardless of the injuries that have constantly hit our defense, it has stood up well all year. The fact he made it his intention to improve this area and it has improved means things aren't just happening.

His next step (for mine) is hardness across the board in all the 1% areas

Ruck

A viable forward line where Fev plays a part like everyone else and where the forwards' focus is on kicking goals not on who kicks goals.

As for favorites - a lot of that is to do with perception. Many here hate JR and have wanted him dropped since round 1 - I am actually pleased with his work this year, am happy to see him develop - he is not one that was ever going to be de-listed, so play him and let him continue his improvement - get him to 75 odd games and see then.

If over the next two years other pass him (and many think players will/ have) - so what? We'll have some depth and experience. The club had to make some choices on which players to get experience into to develop that core group of 75/130 gamers. JR was one they chose and while nmot starring he is improving and playing a role in this side every week. I am happy with that.

The ruck is the real issue in all this and I agree about Hampson (and for mine Aisake, but we'll never know, and Jacobs) yet we have held our own except against the very best. I hope Hampson comes in soon and plays the remainder of the games. We must game him up.

The hard part is that

a) Ratts needed wins (2 year contract is shaky ground)

b) finals - I think the club took wins over development but this is a hard balancing act and I have no idea if I am right or not. The coaching staff know the players, know their energy and what the wins/talk of finals is doing for them. In the end I trust that. I will say that over the years I have often showered with groups of players at the gym - the energy this week was amazing. I remember early in the year there was a group of them and it was quiet whispers and a sort of 'here we are again' but this week, they damn near blew the lid of the place with their chatter/banter and laughter.

I hope Ratts makes it, worry about why he was chosen, think next year will be the test - we should play finals, and understand this is all la la land - the club will do what it does - when they get it right I'll be screaming as loud as anyone, when they get it wrong I'll point fingers with the masses.

Its not about fears or I told you so's

Its about a club

its fun.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

You shower with the players Dannyboy???

Indie to me there has been a noticeable difference in Ratten's 22 games in debuts and game time for those kids. As I noted to some extent it had to happen, but 3 debuts in the last 6 rounds of 2007 (v. 5 in the first 16 rounds) and 6 debuts in the first 10 rounds of 2008 (excluding players from other Clubs) shows to me a distinct change of philosophy.

I didn't (don't) count ready-made players from other Clubs but on numbers alone there is a pattern. Of course there are reasons for it, to me philosophy is one.

http://www.blueseum.org/tiki-index.php? ... 05+to+2009

You could almost count Austin's second game as a debut of sorts. Whilst playing well for the Bullants he wasn't exactly smashing the door down for senior selection (although I am glad he has been played).

I have said it elsewhere - I would like A. O'hAilpin and Clint Benjamin to be given a senior game or two over the next 6 rounds to see what they are capable of.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

If you took it on the last 6 games last year, you'd win the debate hands down. Then again, the infamous T word clouds the picture on that one.

One thing that's intrigued me - would Jamo have been promoted if Pagan had remained? From recollection, Jamo's stocks at the club had been rising rapidly at the club throughout the year, and obviously Crosisca would have been a ferocious advocate. There was the attempt to promote Aisake which fell apart when he was injured. Would Jamo have been next cab off the rank no matter who coached? If the answer is that it would only have happened with Ratts at the helm, then that has to be a massive tick to him.

For why Jamison gets games, you'd probably need to ask Libba

Essendon* will have 5 players running around this weekend who are between 29-33 years of age.
Some of those players are absolute keys to their team!
If you think thats planning for the top 4 in 2 years, you're on a different bus to me.

Richmond on the other hand have 5 30+year olds running out this week.
Some of those players are the absolute keys to their success.

Apart from Fevola, all of our key players are 24 years old or younger.
I'd happily take our list and development level thanks.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

There comes a time when you just have to back the club , the structures the people we have and the appointments we have made.

You can sit around and nitpick and moan that they are not doing things the way you would have done but I have come to a point where i trust pratt and Swann to put together the plan and the team to take us forward.

I believe Ratts to have a grat football mind. He played hundreds of games for the blues. Learning the game from the games best and eventually putting his own name up there.

Since finishing playing i dare say that he has rarely not watched footy with an aim to one day coach. Everyone you speak to in footy knows he has a great football brain. He has some good assisants and together i am sure they can get the mix right and put together a team that can play to the gameplan Ratts wants.

Sure this year things may at time look a bit of mess but when introducing kids to the game you are going to get that. I am sure Ratts is happy that they can just get out there and get a few touches and enjoy their football in their first or second year. Something we all screamed for during the Pagan years.


I personally am on for the ride.

Good post Club29!

One other thing I would say is that I notice a tendency on here when we lose for people to come out and say we got the match ups and the team selections wrong. Two things with that:

where are those people on a Thursday and Friday before the game saying the team selection is wrong?

can we give Ratten credit for the match ups he gets right in wins if we are going to criticise him for those he got wrong in losses? Just a bit of even-handedness about it would be nice.

Still... I did notice one poster complain when the team was named last night that if we lined up like that then we would lose. So some people are obviously still trying to grapple with the fact that teams don't line up with three across the back line, three across the half back line, three across the centre, etc etc anymore.

Talking about Ratts having favourites is rubbish - do you not think that a guy who spends all his time down at the club and with the players might have a better understanding of them than us supporters who see them on game day and occasionally at training?

To say JR is a favourite and his selection in the team isn't based on the same standards of others just doesn't take into account so many factors. For a start, as was mentioned earlier, a lot of this has to do with perception of how you think JR has gone. I'm probably in the minority but I've seen a lot of improvement from him this year and I think he has played his role well more often than not. Surely however, another factor that comes into play is what is going to be best for his development. Ratts has spent time with the kid and knows something about his character and has probably judged that for him to grow and become a better player he needs an extended run in the seniors so that he understands he has a coach who believes in him, which will allow his confidence to grow and take him to the next level as a player.

Maybe this is different to someone like Jake Edwards - who has cracked it in the seniors for a couple of games at a time before going back to the Bullants. Maybe Ratts has judged Jake to be someone who gets disheartened about having games in the seniors when he has little to no impact and keeping him in this situation would be more of a hindrance than a positive. Maybe its the same with Hammer.

I'm not saying any of these arguments are fact, I wouldn't know this any more than anyone else here. I'm just saying that the coaches look at a much broader perspective than what happens in 4 quarters of footy on game day and we need to respect and understand that and trust that they have a greater understanding of our guys as not just players, but people.

Yep. Pretty much spot on, especially the notion that we go into every game thinking we are a chance, which is great!!............ except for my flowering footy tipping

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"If everyone is moving forward together, then success takes care of itself" - Henry Ford

Sheesh, when you put it like that, we're well on our way and the Tiges and Bummers are [REDACTED]!!

yeah but

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

A but is something that is ALWAYS behind you

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"You will always miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- Michael Jordan

Ratts has a footy brain

2008 is a development year; we were never playing this year to win the flag.

In the last 6 weeks of 2007 Ratts had to find out a bit about the list; IMP that's continued in 2009.

I have been disappointed in our forward structure and choice of ruckmen throughout the year. Whiist I believe Ratts and the MC have got it wrong many a time, there has also been situations where players have failed the coach rather than the other way around.

We have missed many opportunities to kick goals when we kicked points and players like Fisher and Carrazzo, have gone backwards; that's not something Ratts can control....but as far as the getting players to step up another level like Aisake, Jackson, Hartlett, I feel someone, perhaps Ratts must take responsibility for that.

If we had broken even in the rucks in all those games we have been demolished there, we would be talking finals right now. Whether Ratts had the ruckmen to do that no one knows.

We have however seen some unexpected shining lights developed amongst the team like Armfield, Browne, Grigg, and the persistence with Russell's development and lets not forget Bower.

Injury has also played havok for the team dating back to Round 1....we've had a rocky ride in 2008.

2008, thus far has been very enjoyable in the main for me, and a bit frustraing at times; what do you expect from the youngest list in the comp?

We've definetely improved a hell of a lot. Sufficiently or enough? I think so. So far I've given Ratts a 7/10.

Give Ratts a hardened ruckman, and a good run with injuries, as well as another preseason into all the young players, (oh yeah with Waite and walker on the wings) and I would expect Ratts to be the man to take us to the finals in 2009. If he doesn't....well I'll wait to see what happens first...watch this space.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue