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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:06 am 
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Garry Crane

Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:52 pm
Posts: 295
Quote:
If there have been issues in the past, why can't people sit down, clear the air, forgive and move on? Its not Setanta's (and Aisake's) responsibility to the club to do this on his own - it takes all sides, and that includes the senior coach and the leadership group among the players (I'm lookin straight at our messiah here - this is part of a captain's job), as well as Lappin and Teague.

Setanta and Aisake are still young kids - they get hot under the collar, no doubt. We are paying Ratts, Lappin, Teague and others to manage all the personalities at the club and get the best out of them. If they can't do that with a guy who has crossed oceans, given up guranteed idolisation in his hiome country, abstained from the drink and drugs, trained his heart out and gives a real dip each week (we are not talking about an Angwin type here), then I am going to lay some blame at their door. If any of those guys are any good in their roles then they will see that petty disagreements and past flare-ups do not trump getting our best team out on the park. If they need to reign in their egos and give Setanta a big metaphorical hug, then that is their duty as employees of OUR club.


Post of the week!!

My sentiments and probably a lot of others as well. The coach is more a personnel manager these days, and the successful ones understand what it takes to get all the guys pulling together in the same direction.

There is more to football than football.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:29 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:28 am
Posts: 1073
Yep, POTW for sure. I really do hope that Santy's allowed to go elsewhere at the end of the year. Again, it will be an absolute dog's act to keep him with the purpose of playing him in the Bullants next year. At his age and stage of development, he needs a real opportunity to play seniors, and I'm absolutely sure that other teams will give him that. Though that may inspire a protect your ar$e reaction from Ratts - he wouldn't want Santy going elsewhere and starring - Santy deserves more than an extended stay in purgatory.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:35 am 
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Horrie Clover

Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:03 pm
Posts: 357
Why do people assume the club hasn't spent time 'sitting down with Setanta'?

As we don't know the full story, I'd like to think that with the level of professional player support the club has these days, we would have already been through counselling etc.

But, I repeat, we don't know what's going on, so let's not condemn anyone too quickly.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:41 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
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Isn't funny how the same posters who defended Pagan's tough stance on players like Beaumont and Mckernan a pretty quick to jump on the current coaching panel for spelling out a few home truths to the Irish Boys.

Pagan was supposed to be changing the culture but all it did was bring a bunch of triers to the club and lead us to six years in the wilderness

Maybe Ratten is changing it back to a winning successful culture .


If it is any consulation RR thinks he is injured and that why he is not even named in the Ants . So you can probably put your conspiracy theory to bed for a while

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:17 am 
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Ken Hunter
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Agree with both last 2 posts.
The other thing is, you cannot possbile compare Fev to Carlos.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:52 am 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
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SurreyBlue wrote:
Agree with both last 2 posts.
The other thing is, you cannot possbile compare Fev to Carlos.


I see, so as a contrast then the match committee loves Carlos attitude and application and are firm in seeing him as part of the club moving forward?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:17 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Doull wrote:
Why do people assume the club hasn't spent time 'sitting down with Setanta'?


The same reason they think the Coaches aren't working with the onballers
The same reason they think the Coaches aren't working with the defenders
The same reason they think the Coaches aren't working with the forwards
The same reason they think the Coaches aren't working on the Game Plan
The same reason they think the MC are throwing the 39 names in the air on Thursday and whichever land face up is given a game......

That reason is........'It doesn't suit their argument or angst'.

In a simple analogy it's like this............

The Club is a huge machine............In huge machines under constant pressure; things break, wear out, fatigue, buckle and bend. Sometimes generic 'no-name' parts have to be used when better built but more expensive quality parts are required for the job. Add to the machine; human nature, human frailty, human interest, self interest and ego and it's a wonder the machine runs at all most weeks.

Most machines work well until the human element becomes involved. The more humans, the more problems. That's just life.

Perfection is something to strive for but extremely hard to achieve with human involvement. Any leader will tell you that.

Regards Cazzesman

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:18 pm 
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Bruce Comben

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:20 pm
Posts: 32
SurreyBlue wrote:
Agree with both last 2 posts.
The other thing is, you cannot possbile compare Fev to Carlos.


Why not? If Fev had one quarter of Setanta’s enthusiasm, passion and commitment, we wouldn’t be in this ridiculous situation regarding Fevola's contract. Give me an honest, team-orientated player any day over a self-centred egotist who seems to be only playing for himself.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:25 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:51 am
Posts: 4919
Cazzesman wrote:
The same reason they think the MC are throwing the 39 names in the air on Thursday and whichever land face up is given a game......
Regards Cazzesman


I suspect some players have their names on both sides. Are you able to check?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:58 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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P.P Blues wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
Agree with both last 2 posts.
The other thing is, you cannot possbile compare Fev to Carlos.


Why not? If Fev had one quarter of Setanta’s enthusiasm, passion and commitment, we wouldn’t be in this ridiculous situation regarding Fevola's contract. Give me an honest, team-orientated player any day over a self-centred egotist who seems to be only playing for himself.


See this is where your wrong.
Fev is full of enthusiasm, passion and commitment. They are his strengths.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:24 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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woof wrote:
I suspect some players have their names on both sides. Are you able to check?


Betts seems like a sneaky type that would do that. :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:35 pm 
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Garry Crane

Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:52 pm
Posts: 295
Quote:
The same reason they think the Coaches aren't working with the onballers
The same reason they think the Coaches aren't working with the defenders
The same reason they think the Coaches aren't working with the forwards
The same reason they think the Coaches aren't working on the Game Plan
The same reason they think the MC are throwing the 39 names in the air on Thursday and whichever land face up is given a game......

That reason is........'It doesn't suit their argument or angst'.

In a simple analogy it's like this............

The Club is a huge machine............In huge machines under constant pressure; things break, wear out, fatigue, buckle and bend. Sometimes generic 'no-name' parts have to be used when better built but more expensive quality parts are required for the job. Add to the machine; human nature, human frailty, human interest, self interest and ego and it's a wonder the machine runs at all most weeks.

Most machines work well until the human element becomes involved. The more humans, the more problems. That's just life.

Perfection is something to strive for but extremely hard to achieve with human involvement. Any leader will tell you that.


Cazz I totally agree hence my comment regarding the management of the personel as being paramount for the modern coach. But if the management style being used is not working, devisive or rewarding the wrong outcomes, acts, whatever, then this is probably one of the greatest factors in the machine failing.

You have a better insight into the inner sanctum than most (probably all) can you please give us your opinion as to the issues regarding Setanta and Aisake; and what you think will become of them.

It is obvious for some of us outside looking in that there are problems but we may be receiving a distorted view. If we had the facts then maybe we would agree with the management of these players but in the absence of this and the fact that other less effective player(s) are receiving automatic selection it is causing people to jump to (possibly the wrong) conclusions.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:01 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:41 pm
Posts: 4629
Cazzesman wrote:
Doull wrote:
Why do people assume the club hasn't spent time 'sitting down with Setanta'?


The same reason they think the Coaches aren't working with the onballers
The same reason they think the Coaches aren't working with the defenders
The same reason they think the Coaches aren't working with the forwards
The same reason they think the Coaches aren't working on the Game Plan
The same reason they think the MC are throwing the 39 names in the air on Thursday and whichever land face up is given a game......

That reason is........'It doesn't suit their argument or angst'.

In a simple analogy it's like this............

The Club is a huge machine............In huge machines under constant pressure; things break, wear out, fatigue, buckle and bend. Sometimes generic 'no-name' parts have to be used when better built but more expensive quality parts are required for the job. Add to the machine; human nature, human frailty, human interest, self interest and ego and it's a wonder the machine runs at all most weeks.

Most machines work well until the human element becomes involved. The more humans, the more problems. That's just life.

Perfection is something to strive for but extremely hard to achieve with human involvement. Any leader will tell you that.

Regards Cazzesman


See CM that's where you are wrong!
Carlton could be an innovator and put the magnetic whiteboard on this forum. When every registered member agrees to 22, then and only then can the side take the ground!

:shock:








:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:43 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:08 pm
Posts: 16984
Location: Melbourne
Carltn70 wrote:
Quote:
The same reason they think the Coaches aren't working with the onballers
The same reason they think the Coaches aren't working with the defenders
The same reason they think the Coaches aren't working with the forwards
The same reason they think the Coaches aren't working on the Game Plan
The same reason they think the MC are throwing the 39 names in the air on Thursday and whichever land face up is given a game......

That reason is........'It doesn't suit their argument or angst'.

In a simple analogy it's like this............

The Club is a huge machine............In huge machines under constant pressure; things break, wear out, fatigue, buckle and bend. Sometimes generic 'no-name' parts have to be used when better built but more expensive quality parts are required for the job. Add to the machine; human nature, human frailty, human interest, self interest and ego and it's a wonder the machine runs at all most weeks.

Most machines work well until the human element becomes involved. The more humans, the more problems. That's just life.

Perfection is something to strive for but extremely hard to achieve with human involvement. Any leader will tell you that.


Cazz I totally agree hence my comment regarding the management of the personel as being paramount for the modern coach. But if the management style being used is not working, devisive or rewarding the wrong outcomes, acts, whatever, then this is probably one of the greatest factors in the machine failing.

You have a better insight into the inner sanctum than most (probably all) can you please give us your opinion as to the issues regarding Setanta and Aisake; and what you think will become of them.

It is obvious for some of us outside looking in that there are problems but we may be receiving a distorted view. If we had the facts then maybe we would agree with the management of these players but in the absence of this and the fact that other less effective player(s) are receiving automatic selection it is causing people to jump to (possibly the wrong) conclusions.


I have next to no real insight into the inner sanctum i.e. behind the scenes, MC stuff because I am rarely there and neither WH or SR give out any info.

The situation is, I don't ask and they don't tell. Which means none of us can be the sneaky leakers :-)

My only insight is having the occasional chat with some of the players and having the occasional player live with Caz and I for short periods. The chats and the living arrangements make you realise they are just kids who happen to be lucky enough to be on an AFL list. Outside of CFC they have all the normal issues of life to deal with.

They have to get over disappointments, injuries, breakups, homesickness and form slumps very quickly.

The season and their lively-hoods can quickly slip away if they have some bad luck and can't get their heads right. Situations happen over which they have no control. They might have had a slow start to the year then be out for a month with injury.

They come back through the VFL and play at Ballarat where it is near on snowing, blowing a gale and the Ants get belted. Then the week after they are at Frankston, where the player is played out of position and can't find a matchup so he spends 50% of the game on the bench. He has had 50 Minutes in 7 days to show his stuff. All of a sudden the pressures of life for a 20yr old start to mount.

Half the season is gone and they are struggling to show much. The supporters start to ask questions and the Internet footy site runs a poll about who is going to get cut at the end of the season. The kids parents see their sons name mentioned and more pressure builds.

Supporters talk to people in the Coterie groups, who talk to Board members who ask cryptic questions to those either in or on the edge of the MC. The snowball gathers plenty going down hill when someones says..."Is Fred up to it?'.

There's an amazing amount of pressure on some 20 year olds at AFL clubs. Most of it generated by the media and the supporters. The media want stories 24/7 and the supporters want instant gratification. That's were the distorted view comes from. Plus we have those people at the club who are feeding snippets of information to some of the posters on sites like TC. All snippets do is produce speculation and hysteria. The media get a sniff and we are off to the races.

You are not going to get all the information and nor should you because it is simply not possible. To try would cause more problems than it is worth. Put some trust in those running the club and if they fail to produce then move them on.

In the end if the MC want to pick a player, then the supporters have to respect that the MC have all the data to make an informed decision. The MC have to balance the short term goals i.e the win, with the long term goals of building Carlton's list for the future.

Ask 10 supporters to name CFC best 22 and you will get 10 different teams. No doubt those involved in the MC have a slightly different 22 they would like to see run onto the field but as a group they work through the why's and wherefores. They try to strike a happy medium between the short and long term goals of the Club and the player.

My insight is that you have 44 individuals who are trying their best to be good at something. Some by nature try extremely hard but don't always make it. That's just life. Let the MC decide who comes and goes and if the MC ultimate get it wrong then someone better will get the gig. Until then have some faith in Ratts, Swanny and Co. Remember we are coming from along way back.

Regards Cazzesman

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:50 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Location: Melbourne
Geez...Caz...you have just made me very depressed after reading that...

























Sunday is only a couple of days away! Happy again! Woo hoo!!! :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:58 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 21588
Location: North of the border
Come on Caz cut with crap


Spill the beans buddy


We want the goss :lol: :lol: :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:02 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Posts: 3509
Location: Brisbane
Cazzesman said:
Quote:
the supporters want instant gratification


Print out that quote and put it on your fridge everyone. Then when you feel like having a hissy fit, look at it again, and remember what Cazz has said. Never has a truer word been spoken!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:15 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

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Never a truer, yet more obvious, word spoken 8)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:16 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Molly wrote:
Cazzesman said:
Quote:
the supporters want instant gratification


Print out that quote and put it on your fridge everyone. Then when you feel like having a hissy fit, look at it again, and remember what Cazz has said. Never has a truer word been spoken!


Nice sentiments Molly, but geez supporting a footy team is an irrational business. It would be incredibly boring to be among a group of supporters who are all rational and patient.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:22 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Fantastic post Cazzesman. I think there's a lot of supporters who don't understand the big picture, and a lot of people tend to forget that we are not talking about abstract concepts when we talk about footy...we are talking about real (usually young) people's lives.

At the same time....it's probably worth adding here that it's very healthy for footy supporters to express their opinions in forums like this one. It's HOW that opinion is expressed that counts IMO...

Using myself as an example....while I support the MC & the players, I am entitled to have my own opinions about what is happening at the club I love. As long as I express those opinions in an appropriate way, there's no problem with me doing that on TC and I can't help how those opinions (about a decision or a player) might make someone else feel.

I'm not saying your post contradicts the above view necessarily, but it did move me to post that I think we need to get a balance between remembering that the club is being run by people who know far more about footy than most of us do (and that the players are young men trying their hardest to succeed), AND remembering that AFL footy is a big business and supporters are right to express an opinion...

Cheers.

P.S. I do have faith in Ratts, Swanny & co....for now! :wink:

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