Have had the opportunity to watch a lot of Hawthorn, Bulldogs and Geelong over the past few months and for mine these teams are miles ahead of anyone else this season. The one thing you realise watching them live is the similarity in their set ups and playing styles.

They all play with effectively two key defenders who are not overly tall and are mobile.

Geelong: Harley & Scarlett
Bulldogs: Lake & White/Williams
Hawthorn: Croad & Gilham

These guys are supported by hard running and skilful midsized players who have the ability to play tall or small and thus exposing deficincies in the oppositions fwd lines defensive pressure.

Examples are Campbell Brown on Goodes or Mackie on Pavlich.

The midfields have depth and players who use the ball well under pressure and are especially good decision makers (what we really lack).

The forward lines do not rely on one partciluar fwd and are not dominated by one person. Even Hawthorn with Buddy rotates well and creates space with Williams, Roughhead, Rioli just as vital.

The Bulldogs are excellent at it with Minson, Murphy, Hahn, Aker all rotating through the forward line.

Geelong are the same with Mooney & Lonergan's main role to creat a contest when the ball does not come in correctly. Chapman, Johnson & Ablett are just as vital.

They also are willing to be unselfish and create space for their teammates. To watch it live is impressive.

These sides are full of players that are mid sized, strong and skilful and play with confidence because of the support around them. These guys can play in many positions sometimes picking up tall defenders to playing small forward.

All are supported by a very good mature & workman like ruck division.

This is the modern game.

The question for us is how to we compare and what do we need to get to this level.

This is not a criticism of Ratten as I am sure he knows this but his goal this year has been to get some wins with what he has got and build some belief in the club again. Something I believe he has done well.

However, to be a top grade side again we need to address some issues.

At the moment we are to tall in defence. We can only afford 2 key defenders. At the moment I believe Jamo & Bower are our best options.

Our midfield is getting better but lacks some depth, size and skill. Hadley will help this but we need players who can hit targets consistently under pressure and assist Judd so he can play a more aattcking role.

Our fwd line struture needs major work. I believe Fev needs to be more flexible for us to go fwd. He needs to be able to play up around HF as well as creating space for other players.

Guys like Walker, Waite, Hadley or even Thornton could easily fill the role of a mobile CHF. Kruezer could be a taller option or even Cloke. Guys like Betts, Murphy, Gibbs, Houlihan, Scotland need to be looked at as goalkicking options and also defensive assistance up fwd.

The ruck is developing and I have hopes for Hampson, Kruezer & Jacobs but in the meantime we need a mature option such as Hudson at the Bulldogs to assist them.

I seriously believe we have to many players on our lists with deficiencies that cannot be addressed. Skill is a big one. Look at this three sides and see how many poor dispoers there are. I would guess we have more on our list than they have together.

We are on the right path but there is some hurt ahead. We need to be realistic with our list and players and plan for the future and the modern game.

You make some good points there.

In terms of skilled mids the injuries we have sustained have not helped us much. Hadley, Houlihan and others have been out of the side which doesn't do us any favours.
Then we have had players like Walker, Bannister and Ando out of the side which stretches our depth - so super skilled players like Gibbs are forced out of the midfield (hasn't it been awesome seeing him develop in there!!!)

The ruck situation is unfortunate but will simply take time as you mentioned. Hammer is a big hope here, I have never seen a monster like him run so fast!





In the backline I believe we are fortunate to have Jamison and Bower who are looking very promising. They can both play tall and small so in terms of getting too tall down back they are very valuable.

Bower is lightening quick and provides tons of run while Jamison can take anyone (Reiwoldt or Medhurst) while the St.Kilda game he provided some fantastic runs up the ground with pinpoint passes that I hadn't seen him do before!
Thornton can take smalls well too like when he smashed motlop.






The FWD line is the problem. I would love to see Waite as a permanent forward, as he has displayed mixed results this year. We are severely lacking a CHF and some skilled small forwards like Didak, Yze and N.Brown.

A CHF would allow Fisher to stay deep where his contested marking can be used to great effect - where he can outmark small defenders trying to run off him. Fev will do what he always does: lead and present strongly out of the square, while the small forwards can be at the packs feet to mop up.

We need a CHF and small mercurial type forwards (Wiggins and Russell don't do the Job well enough). The draft is loaded with talls, so we should try to get them now!!

Think about it, in defence we have many running defenders (Browne, Bannister, Ando) whilst for talls we still have Austin and Setants.
We have to fix this problem by drafting tall and small forwards this year before the new teams ravage the draft.

Our midfielders just don`t back themselves to kick goals. Only when we have a run on in last quarters do they seem willing to have a crack at them.I don`t know how many times i have screamed out "have a shot" this year,instead we go sideways or to the wrong option or to Fev 3 on 1. We have players such as Simpson,Stevens,Murph,Gibbs and even Juddy who know where the goals are but we`re not getting the returns like some other clubs get from their midfields. Our goals only come from Fev in form,freak efforts from the boundary or free kicks in front. I expect this will improve with experience and confidence but frustrating at the moment.

No doubt these 3 sides are the current benchmark of the comp. The ladder tells us that. Recent history tells us the current Geelong side are an extremely good side (ie) they won the flag & are on top this year. WB & Hawks are exciting teams to watch & play the modern game superbly well. They also have a fair smatttering of very skilful & quick players, which don't hurt. We have ours too.

However, one thing that stood out when reading CJ69's post, more than anything else, was the names of the players he mentioned & then it occurred to me.

The Geelong, WB & Hawks players mentioned are mostly experienced footballers, in # of games played, whereas the Carlton boys were not (apart from a few) & that to me is the fundamental difference between us (currently) & those 3 (skill levels aside) and that's not even mentioning the other 12 sides in the comp who are ALL more experienced than us, not to mention older than us. I'm pretty sure we have the youngest & least experienced list in the comp.

IMO, experienced players make less mistakes than kids, they kick better more often, handball better more often, find targets more often, are better in a contest more often, are more creative at times, because that's what there experience has yielded over their games/careers. They have also played together more often & know each others games better - How, through experience with one another.

Of the 22 players for each team that played in Rnd 15 (as opposed to each others best/first 22) -

Geelong - Total games played 2522 (Ave games per player 115),
WB - 2195 (Ave 100), Hawks 1890 (Ave 86), Carlton 1599 (Ave 73).

Geelong have 42 more games per player than we have, WB 27, Hawks 13.
That equates to 2 seasons the Geelong players are ahead of ours in terms of experience, WB 1 season (plus a few games - maybe even finals)
Hawks are half a season ahead.

Players that have played less than 1 season (ie) 22 games or less, again from the players that played on the w/end -

Gee - 2, WB - 4, Hawks - 4, Carlton - 6.

Let's go the other way. Players that have played 100+ games -

Gee - 14, WB - 11, Hawks - 6, Carlton - 5.

So from all that in terms of experienced players we are way behind Geelong & WB. The Hawks are less experienced than I iitially thought but have some wonderful talent as we all know. Geelong & WB's talent aint bad either. We've got some gooduns also in Kreuze, Gibbs, Murphy (etc) but you still need to get games into em & they need time. Those 3 probably less time than most.

Yes, we do have to look at how we play the modern game & we need to look at the players on our list, to determine which ones will or won't make the grade - or have been in the grade for some time but not yet done anything (ie) 50 - 100 gamers that aren't, can't or won't do what's required for us to be a force in modern football. That will be done as a matter of course at the end of the season like it always is. I'm sure Ratts & Co, Swanny (etc) know all this & will be/are addressing it.

Bottom line is, IMO, the comparison made to the top teams is unfair atm & unrealistic, when considering the amount of experience (or lack of) that our guys currently have. That will change as time goes on & we will be one of the very good sides in the competition AGAIN (as we should be) & playing finals (as we should be), but it is going to take time & experience.

We have just come off our worst period ever, as everyone is painfully aware of. We have recently aquired one of the best footballers in the comp (15 games ago, not 50 or 100) We have some good young talent now BECAUSE we were made to bear a cross that no other team had to bear before us. We have now won 7 out of 15 this year, that's almost double what we won last year & we still have a third of the season to go, with a different team that will take time to gel together.

IMO one of the key reasons for us showing the improvement we have done, so quickly, is because WE ARE CARLTON. We have the history/knowledge to be at the top & that is where we will end up AGAIN.
Why have we won the most flags - Simple really - We, through our illustrious history & the players/admin (etc) that have been before, KNOW how to win em. That knowledge will be passed onto the current group but it takes time.

PATIENCE IS AND WILL BE REQUIRED

Excellent points TC.

Experience is essential when getting to the top. I would only add to that is that we need to get 100 odd games into players that fit the criteria as I mentioned. This is the main reason why we need to make tough decisons at the end of the year. If we persist with players that will struggle with a modern game plan then we will continue to be around mid table.

Anyway very good points.

The improvement was to come from the likes of Waitey, Fisher, T-bird, Simmo, Banno, Houla and Wiggo taking that next step.

Simmo has stagnated a little, T-bird hard to comment on as he was injured for a while and Waitey will never improve his kicking but no doubt are solid contributors

Unfortunately i cant see any improvement coming from Fisher nor Wiggo and Banno. We know what there best is, they have had plenty of time and chances but we will get nothing more out of them than we already Know and its not enough. The same goes with Houla he has his weaknesses, no sorry is weak..... enough said

Absolutely CJ - tough decisions do need to be made & I am sure they will be. I do agree with you that the game has changed & we need to be aware of that from a coaching level & in scrutinising the current group of players we have. Again I am fairly confident in Ratts, Sticks, Braddles, Diesel, Skinny, Teaguey (etc) in the deelopment of our team, because they are Carlton & know, unlike any other club in the comp, what it means to be so.

I have noticed that our game play has changed quite a bit from those first three rounds of the year. We are playing on alot more and running more with the ball instead of "standing and delivering". We're moving the ball quicker than we used to, and every so often you can see it....when we bust out of the middle quicker than at any time in recent memory. There is hope.

Lake - 195/104
Wight - 200/97
Williams - 196/101

Wouldn't Geelong be playing Egan at 196/101 alongside the other 2 talls if he wasn't injured? And didn't they play the 193cm Harry Taylor as the 3rd tall before they realised he was crap?

Aren't Hawthorn grooming Thorp (194/87) and Roughead (193/101) as defender/forwards, and using Birchall (193/92) as a rebounding/defensive flanker. Didn't they try to secure Thornton as a tall defender as well?

Wouldn't Bower be best utilised as a Tadgh Kennelly rebounder rather than a KPP?

Is the point that we shouldn't have defenders who are over 200cm tall? If so, I'd agree with that.

I undertsand your points Indie but mine is that there is generally only two of them down back. The guys you mentioned are very mobile and surrounded by 4-5 running players.

At the moment we are developing some Key Defender players in Setanta, Jamo, Thornton, Bower, Austin & Waite. If we keep three or four of them down back every week we lose a lot of drive and rebounding effect. We also get caught out by more mobile attacks which was evident against Geelong.

For me the best options are Jamo, Bower or Austin. Build a defence around 2 of them with run from Anderson, Browne, Grigg, Scotland, Walker, Armfield. All good hard players who can attack. The support of these players and their ability to work together is just as important as the match ups.

To me Jamo looked very good against Reiwoldt, even being injured.

If Walker & Waite play wings in a Richo type role they can then float back and assist the defence and also push forward. I would also like to see Thornton play as a mobile CHF. He has good hands, can kick a goal and has a good defensive side to his game. He played that role as a junior and I think he needs the change.

The other point to this is to have a mature ruckman who can drop back in the hole and block and supply. Guys like Kruezer and Hartlett can then ruck in the fwd 50.

We could develop as Hawthorn and Geelong are now, and by the time we are ready to challenge in 2010 football would have evolved beyond that.

I'm not disagreeing with you cj69, or saying you are wrong. But actually what we need to be doing is taking some of the elements you mention above, and also working out how footy will change in those next two seasons beyond the current Geelong / Hawthorn model. Some crystal-balling will be necessary.

Totally agree Molly, by the time we reach that level the game will have evolved further but I believe that the more mobile and skilful players will be a major part of it.