Minimal risk would include not over possessing the ball and not over doing the short kicks and handballs, I would have thought, I'm not so keen on restricting players anyway.
There should be no such thing as a short or long game plan, it should always be the best option.....and if that includes run and carry then go for it....

_________________
"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Seeing as Collingwood is now our benchmark, this is Malthouse's record at the Filth.

Filth P W L D % F
2000 22 7 15 0 32 0
2001 22 11 11 0 50 0
2002 25 15 10 0 60 3
2003 25 17 8 0 68 3
2004 22 8 14 0 36 0
2005 22 5 17 0 23 0
2006 23 14 9 0 61 1
2007 25 15 10 0 60 3

Malthouse gets 22 games, Ratts gets 10 games.

Let's all agree that last years few games where Ratts coached, was not geared to us winning.

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

Spot on. Totally agree.
The real test will be after the mid season break.
We'll see how the younger bodies hold up,as well as get some players back from injury.

_________________
Friends, Carltonians, countrymen, lend me your ears
Now is the time - The time is now.
If you want it, come and claim it....if you dare.
One day, very very soon.....we will ride again.

Swann and Pratt should go all out and try everything they can do to get Buckley as coach.

And what makes you think that Buckley can coach any better than Ratts?

Trying to run before you can walk IS a problem .
We are almost in the same position that we were last year.
That is, 4 wins from 10 games compared to 4 from 11.
But the difference is that our percentage was barely 70 last year and this year it is in the 90's.
We have been in winning positions in 8 out of 10 games.
We have also conceded less than 100 points in 4 matches compared to none last year.

This is not a question of who is the better coach, nor
is it a question of which coach has a better game plan.

It's pretty simple, i would challenge anyone to say that they thought we'd make the finals this year, because that would require 12 wins.
Most people would have predicted 6-10 wins...and we are on course to achieve that, based on our performance so far this season.

Add to that the kids are getting game time and they are building up time playing to the new coaches requirements (irrespective of whether its good or not)
The fact is they are fine tuning the style and they are building up confidence....and Confidence can take a team a long way.
They will also be developing physically with bigger bodies and bigger engines.

All teams need at least a couple of years to re-stock, re-load and re-launch.
Geelong went through it, Hawks went through it, Brisbane have gone through it, even Magpies had two lean years in 04 and 05. So why are we any different.

We have taken a bit longer because we didn't have any money to spend on a Lexus centre, to have multiple Development coaches, Psychologists , extensive Recruitment networks/scouts.....now we are getting those.

As i've said in the past, we'll have about 6-8 wins in 2008, 10 to 12 wins in 2009 and in 2010 we will be serious premiership contenders.

Until then, judge the team on realistice performance indicators (a combination of hard lag indicators and soft lead ones)

Be patient....as we are turning the corner.

_________________
Friends, Carltonians, countrymen, lend me your ears
Now is the time - The time is now.
If you want it, come and claim it....if you dare.
One day, very very soon.....we will ride again.

stick to one line of debate rather than changing it every few seconds and perhaps some might take your posts as something other than ranting.
In your own words -


my post provided the reasons why they might be more skilled/structured (malthouse system has been in place for close to 10yrs) and clearly showed that collingwood are significantly older/more experienced than us.

Collingwoods past 2 opponents were the eagles and cats and prior to that the saints.

The eagles have similar ages, but about 1/2 a season less expeirience. They dont travel well to melbourne, and have had their midfield nuked in the post season (cousins/judd) - also missing or injury affected from their top 25 or so players were kerr, hurn, hunter, mitch brown, masten, le cras, jones.

cats match - I've gone through their stats before but the loss was clearly a blip given their form thoughout the season.

saints - older and more experienced but havent havent lived up to expectations (fits in with the window being a couple seasons ago). The list is imbalanced (their #1 midfielder is 38) and they havent been able to adapt to lyons game plan over the past couple of seasons. I wont go through their injuries

Our past couple of games - freo and brisbane

freo - average 25yos, 103 games. Widely accepted to be too old too slow and will probably rebuild within a couple of seasons. Also a new coach/system

brisbane - 24yrs and 7 mths, average 82.8games - older and stronger by aprox 1 season. Their prime movers though - 7 players with 100+games (5 with 150+ as opposed to our 1). Their prime movers are guys from their earlier premierships - power, black, bradshaw, brown, notting, charman. Playing under and established system.

So what is your point exactly? - none of the above support your arguements

In answer to the original question of the thread, probably not.

We are still re-building and as the last seven pages attests to, it will take time and we will cop some floggings from time to time.

It's probably a combination of things, but personally I think that we are a better team under Ratts than we were under Pagan. Who knows what Pagan would have done with the same list, but Ratts is actually trying to bring us into the modern era and when we get nother year or two into our playing list we'll be up there with the rest of them. I think that we'll be there well before Essendon* and any of the other "up and coming" teams.

_________________
"our guest is dressed by hand-me-downs, hair designed by pillow"

I still have a few doubts over Ratts although with time I think he will he a good coach. Buckley on the other I think will be special.

Some concerns I have about Ratts are:
> Our kick outs from full Back. There seems to be no strategy there at all. Even Waite took out a few kicks outs which is most unbelievable. One of the worst kicks in the league.
> Our defensive kick in also a mess. Against the crows they crunched us with their kick outs.
> Conservative selection of players. For example Fisher should have been dropped 2 or 3 games ago. Why was Ackland selected against Brisbane?? Why has it had taken Armfield so long to get a game. The policy to stick with Jordon Russell isnt working. Tough decisions need to be made on certain players…be bold in selection!! Look what Adelaide did in 96 when Blighty sacked living legends.
> Our forward line structure is a mystery. Our mids and defense are working well but our forward line system is a total shambles. We only one avenue to goal?? surely with all the zoning by opposition players against Fev we could provide other alternatives or options…its not happening and getting frustrating. Try something different use him as a decoy.
> Still not competitive against sides that have smashed us in the last 5 years. We got taken to the cleaners against Geelong, Brisbane, St Kilda and to an extent in the last quarter against the crows.

Some really good points 4th Chicken.

There is a lot of ranting and raving going on by some posters, but very few actual logical points or analysis.

People don't realise things take time and Ratten has not had enough of this. Not even half a season with the youngest list in the league and people expect miracles.
Poster are just very reactionary and go with the current trend. Not long ago everyone wanted coaches like Worsfold, Eade was a joke and Clarkson played chip football that went sideways (Remember what Newman used to say to him).

Ratten has / will make mistakes. Let's not cruicfy him every time he does.

Before we pass judgement we should see out the season

so far i believe Ratts has done better but better to make assessment after full season
My expectations where between 7-10 wins if we reach that i believe we look to be going in the right direction if we are 5-6 partial improvement if we remain on 4 wins yer that would classify little improvement to what we have experienced from the Pagan error

hopefully we get between 7-10 wins

If we look at some points on Ratten thus far
* Players seem to enjoy playing for Ratts
* Developing a Game plan
* Seeing some help from past greats (Diesel)
* adapting a new Plan there have been more variations in the first six rounds than 4 years of Pagan so yes there is a plan. Is it working 100% at moment no but hopefully it will develope over the season
* Several new kids included and given chance to play 6 debuts so far this year - Browne, Phiefer, Armfield Ellard, Edwards and Kruzer which is more than i have seen over last couple of seasons and all have had reasonable time of the ground Also there looks to be good prospects from most that have been tried so people saying kids havnt been played need to have another look at some of the inclusions.
* Jamison Grigg and Hampson where all blooded by Ratts late last yearand have been all used when available in 2008
* possible revitalised a couple of players in Banister and Wiggans (still needs to have more impact) but banister seemed to have found some new life before falling to injury.
* Last 6 rounds had to contend with a unsettled Back 6 which has been missing key back players in Walker, Thornton, Jamison, Now Bower - Waite stupidly to being reported.
* The affect of the having to keep changing the back six has caused player options we could use in the forward line to cover for the backline as well as loosing cohesion and familiarity. Ie Satanta Ratts wanted in the forward line been used on backline. Fisher instead of Forward more on wing. Waite even to mix up in forward line mainly covering backline. Kruzer on weekend backline instead of CHF. Carrots been used in Back pocket instead of Forward Pocket. So over last 6 weeks the team has been a little unbalanced due to injuries and we have had a few.
* Injuries mainly to backline. Jamison, Walker, Houlahan, Thornton, Bower, Hadley, cloke, Banister. Of that List the biggest losses have been the backline.
* A fair assessemnt can be made at seasons end and hopefully in next 3-4 weeks we can have a near full list to pick from.

I would have been far more unhappy if we had played like the Tigers did on the weekend with a full list and had a score line of 73 - 13.

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CFC TAC Squad everyone over 25 must be traded sounds like Loguns Run

Now now... i dont hate Ratts... he is one of my favourite footballers ever!!!

But a favourite footballer doesnt mean he can coach does it???

Now lets look at it like that. very simplistic terms.

We cant kick the footy out of the goals after a point with any strategy or logic..... so how are we going strategically in open play where there is pressure???

DUC.. i dont know how Malthouse went in his first year....

So what????

Did he have 3 number 1 picks?
Or the best player in the competition?
Or a second pick.... etc?????


Did he have exacty the same players so we can compare ?
How do you compare apples and oranges???

All i know is we dont have a game plan that looks cohesive...

For ex ample DUC... how many goals have we gone coast to coast?
How is our forward line fiunctioning?
Do we have an alternative forward after Fev thats effective?
Who is our second leading golakicker and how many goals has he kicked after 10 games?
Are you impressed with our kicking out?
Do we constantly get caught with the ball and hammered possessing?
Are players moving with momentum forward when they receive the ball?
Are players running hard to create options?
Blocks and shepherds???



All these things i would consider as basics in football.....

Do you???

At the moment Ratten is hoping player do something individual and brilliant to win a game....
Fev has to kick a few... or Eddie a freaky goal... or Judd needs to star...

And whilst that might not be true in every sense.. and we do win a game because we grafted out a win.....how many wins have we had when the team has played in total unison with a pattern of football that is sustainable....???

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

To me it actually looks like we are in a way sacrificing a win or two this season in order to drill stuff into the young players that will have benefits next season and beyond.

I'm more concerned with selections than coaching at the moment. The coaching seems to be following closely to the Thompson/Clarkson model of plenty of chipping around in the first year, then releasing the players through the middle the year after. At least that is what you would hope, we will not know until 2009.

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Melv honestly I think we can all agree there are 16 clubs that want Murph. Only one have him. Should I say Richmond want him? I'm sure they do. Melbourne want him? I'm sure they do too. It's all irrelevant really

Have to disagree with you again. It is Hawthorn's running brigade that is driving their success. Buddy is helping greatly but he is not THE key. The key is the likes of Mitchell, Hodge, Sewell, Lewis, Bateman, Crawford, Birchall, Ellis etc etc etc. There's a lot. They're big bodied, tough, hard working midfielders who can win a tough ball, run, and hit targets. They are determined and hard at it (we seem to come out half asleep sometimes) They have 2 ruckmen who are one of the best ruck combinations this season and greatly under rated. This midfield is driving their success, much as Geelongs does, much as West Coasts did.

I think most would agree that Buddy is not the only difference between us and Hawthorn or "the rest of the pack" and Hawthorn

DUC's response the Sailor Man's questions!

DUC.. i dont know how Malthouse went in his first year....

So what???? You have raised the Collingwod comparison, which is why I raised that point.

Did he have 3 number 1 picks? They had Fraser and picked up Didick
Or the best player in the competition? Buckley was at that time
Or a second pick.... etc????? Traded pick 8 and another pick to get Clement and Holland.

Did he have exacty the same players so we can compare ?
How do you compare apples and oranges??? You're the one comparing. I'm just trying to show you how pointless your comparison is!
All i know is we dont have a game plan that looks cohesive... We don't have the players either in some of the key spots on the field.

For ex ample DUC... how many goals have we gone coast to coast? No idea
How is our forward line fiunctioning? Not the best
Do we have an alternative forward after Fev thats effective? Nope
Who is our second leading golakicker and how many goals has he kicked after 10 games? Eddie - 14
Are you impressed with our kicking out? Hell no
Do we constantly get caught with the ball and hammered possessing? We do and so do other clubs - its called footy and if your not switched on, you look and play like a geriatric.
Are players moving with momentum forward when they receive the ball? Not enough players are moving into position to present opps further down the field - No.
Are players running hard to create options? Hell no
Blocks and shepherds??? Some do, some don't



All these things i would consider as basics in football.....

Do you??? Yes i do

At the moment Ratten is hoping player do something individual and brilliant to win a game....
Fev has to kick a few... or Eddie a freaky goal... or Judd needs to star...

And whilst that might not be true in every sense.. and we do win a game because we grafted out a win.....how many wins have we had when the team has played in total unison with a pattern of football that is sustainable....??? We have won 4 games. You seem to have less patience than a bull in a china shop. Give the man some time instead of expecting instant gratification. Bomber Thompson was given a ridiculous amount of time as well as the creme de la creme of F/S picks, now he has the one of the best drilled teams in the competition. How long did that take? Go back and have a look at how badly the Cats used to play and then let me know if you recognise that team to the team that played us on Saturday night.

_________________
“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

Thanks heavens you pointed out to Synbad that he was the one doing the apples and oranges comparison DUC. For a second there I thought I was going absolutely stark raving bonkers because I could have sworn it was Synbad who was the one doing it... and then he pointed the finger at you for it!

First point - there is NOTHING that suggests that Buckley can coach or is a better coach than Ratts, until Buckley starts his coaching career we will never know.

Kick ins from full back have been somewhat of a problem, but I think that has more to do with the injuries we have had in defense and ratten trying to assess how each player responds to the pressure of a kick in.

Player selections have been to conservative???? You may want to look back to the last few years to see what conservative selections is. We have blooded more players this year than the last few years.
Jamison, Bower, Armfield, Kruezer, Hadley, Pheiffer, Browne, Edwards, Grigg and Hampson are all players that have been blooded under Ratts, ten players in ten rounds is hardley conservative.


Funny enough, most people thought that our defense what the glaring deficency at the start of the season and now defense seems to go alright, but no praise for Ratts. Instead we complain about Fev being our only goal kicker, BTW he has contributed 28% of all of Carltons goal this year which is about right for a dominant foward. We need more potency up forward no doubt, but until we get some more players back from injury there is not much that can be done. Walker, Hoops and Hartlett will make a difference.

How can you blame Ratts for not being competetive against the reigning premiers???? FWIW we have been competitive with Geelong for 3 quarters, same with nearly every team except Saints. Lets see how we go against them round 15, I feel that barring more injuries we will be competetive. Time to get real and accept where we are at, and that aint a top eight team yet.

I have my reservations with Ratts and the method of his appointment, but I will give him his two years to see how he performs before I will call for his head.

That said, who would like to swap him for one of the other first year coahes????

When the Pies got done by 10 goals 3 weeks ago Malthouse said that the loss let them see areas they can improve.

Ratts saw the same.

Give the bloke a chance.