Considering all the negative incidents of 2003, and now the current situation of a similar nature with players not wanting to "put in", I believe these supposedly loyal servants of the Carlton Football Club are in fact treating their employer, but more importantly, you and me - the supporter - with absolute contempt.

Those not aware of the situation, the innocent but uninformed supporters, humbly attend the football each week hoping to see their boys fight for the jumper and perhaps pull out a win. Instead what they are actually seeing is a bunch of sooks taking the money and going through the motions.

The whole thing's a charade, and those who are complicit in it are not just those perpetuating the deed, but those also aware of it and covering it up.

So, who's guilty?

Obviously the players (current and former), but add Pagan and the coaching staff, match committee, the CFC board, perhaps some members of the media, and you and me!

Should we tell the world and embarass the perpetrators by exposing their subversive acts to the greater community?

In saying that, do we ring the radio stations, television shows, write letters and the like?

Should we just sit here like a bunch of losers and do nothing about it, just like when we didn't make a move earlier on Elliot? Do we sit here and just take this shit week after week?

I'm sick of the masquerading. What's the next move?

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Was that a serious post George?

Where's the boobies and stuff?

I don't like putting words into peoples mouths, but I dont think George is talking about "tanking" for Draft Picks - he is talking more about players not actually putting in as some subsersive act against the Coach/Administration.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Correct, Agro.

This is nothing to do with club-sanctioned tanking.

This is about subversively masquerading as a committed footballer and undermining everything the club stands for.

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Unfortunately if the club was to expose those concerned (of whom there are many) the repercussions would be more damaging than covering it up.

Why does Denis say Lance is a required player when we all know he's not?

Because it's spin aimed at keeping his price at a reasonable level. Remember what happened with Paul Roos and Terry Wallace? If supporters of other clubs hear exactly how bad Lance is in terms of commitment to the team and his preparation then other clubs will think twice before going after him. That's one example - there's plenty of others.

Yes it's a masquerade and yes it's annoying but as you ask - what can you do?

My apologies, I have deleted my post, there are five questions in the original post, thought I was addressing at least one of them.

Play on.

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Obviously the cancer that Synbad is referring to is alive and well.

Pagan still has his work cut out to cut it out.

That is why the strategy of recruiting second chancers like Teague, Bowyer etc with good training attitude and work ethic wasn't all about creating a winning on field side but about creating a positive training and attitude ethic around the club.

2004 National Draft- with Russell, Hartlett and Blackwell as our first 3 picks was about the start of creating a base list of young players. 2005 likewise.

This is no quick fix and anyone hoping that it will be is kidding themselves.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

I can think of a quick fix - arsenic!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Folks, we're beginnning to accept the reality of our situation. We need to be patient, the club will get there. The personel may change heaps (across the board), but the club will eventually get there. Our real question is how long will it take, not what needs to be done...

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Galaxies in the grain...

spoilsport!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

C'mon Socrates, drink the hemlock!!!

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

The other question is, how is something so potentially newsworthy kept out of the media?

What forces are at play to keep it so low key?

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Because the majority of fourth estate is a collection of drunken lazy pricks who wouldn't know a story if it jumped up and infected their arses with pustular sores. "Journalism" today (with apologies to Caro who continues to be the only sports writer capable of writing something that isn't handed to her on a club press release) is essentially about "reporting" the spin that the AFL's interested parties put before them. They are stupid and they are lazy and they allow organisations like the AFL and the clubs to remain stupid and lazy also.

I thought this was obvious George...?

That GWS is right - football journalism here has long been a laughing stock.

I love how "powerful" and "all knowing" we are.

Expect some knighthoods soon.

Ok, if this is all true which players need to go and who needs to be brought in to fix it?

Players I suspect need to go from what I've heard and suspect myself...

Whitnall
Campo
Houla
Norman

What we need to fix it?

One or more Assistant coaches capable of both exerting authority but also gaining respect of the players. Whether this is a Peter Dean, Nathan Burke, Robert Harvey, Michael Voss

Personally I think we need more history around the club so the players soak it up and start bleeding for the jumper. Brett Ratten should be our next coach and we should be looking at a succession plan now.

I really think now we need to recruit a gun player from another club. Maybe someone in the 25-28 age bracket who's going to have some influence over our players. This will take a special kind of person and probably isn't even possible, but think back to Peter Dean rumored to be going to North in the early 90's. Would haev been more for influence than as a player.

I'm sick of us being a joke and this kind of talking is making us a bigger joke than ever

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

I think 'passion' and 'love for the jumper' are handed down from past players, past legends.

We need Koutoufides and Camporeale and Whitnall (a young veteran) and Lappin, our oldest current Blues, to better sell-in the history and success of the club to young recruits.

These players aren't doing that well at the moment. Pagan needs to send the proverbial fire cracker up these players' arses.

I thnk that it will be veryimportant to get one or two experienced players that have been in premiership winning sides. It will also be important to get assistant coaches that have climbed the premiership mountain.

Pagan I think might have lost some of the players, but this doesnt mean that he is doing anything wrong apart from getting up the noses of some players who would be happier to have a half hearted go and collect their pay.

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My Blue Heaven

Verbs, I love how blissfully ignorant you are.

Expect some blindfolds and ear plugs soon.

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