For some reason I'm not as concerned about it as a few have been - perhaps its blind faith in ratten (though I'm not one of those type of people).

Personally I think it takes at least a season for a coach to implement his style of play through training drills. Yet people seem to be expecting instant results and an obvious game style to be evident. Imho the emergence of a particular game style will be more gradual rather than something that is immediately obvious.

From what I have seen this year, it appears that we have gone from handball happy, play on at all costs (cant recall the style in the last 6 rounds of 07) to a more deliberate process of picking out targets/not turning it over which begs the question - why the change?

Perhaps it is the acknowledgement that many of our players had poor footy smarts and consequently consistently picked the wrong options on field. Whilst training drills can be utilised to improve this, training is a long way short of match day pressure.

So how to fasttrack development of the decision making skills? By slowing down the game and in effect 'forcing' the players into making decisions on field (ie pick out targets where players are manned up or the team is flooded) rather than blazing away and to continually move when off the ball. As decision making improves the speed of ball movement would be expected to increase. Once that is achieved I'd expect a shift back towards the main gameplan of rapid handball release with a more direct style of play

Well thats what i'd do if I was a coach - I'd have in mind certain benchmarks either at training or on match day - and when these targets were achieved, the players would be released. In the meantime, sacrifice a few rounds of football in the name of fasttracking development of the team. Rather than taking over a yr to implement ratten's' basics' we might see real improvement within 12 rounds - well here's hoping at least!

I am amazed at some of the people on TC who have gone into attack mode on Ratten so quickly when they gave Pagan two to three years.

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I think some people had unrealistic expectations this early in the season for Judd, Ratten and the gameplan and need to wait it out. There have been some real positive passages of play in two losses. With a fitter team and Walker (who's run and ability I highly rate) there should be more consistency as the season progresses. I'm with you 4th chicken, waiting and hoping for round 12 for a better guage.

Pagan never had a fair go from the word go at this Club with both the Collins regime and the Footballers themselves ganging up on Pagan, I think the main thing that still hurt us still, is the no player over 25 years old would be picked up policy, as a successful team must have a mixture of experienced strong bodies and young talent coming up.

What players over the age of 25 were preapred to come to Carlton apart from Michael Gardiner?

Ok we give Ratts 5 years to find a game plan.... yeah??????

Look the game changed alot while Pagan was coach...

The game right now has settled down.....

We didnt have a settled club under Pagan....

We do now.

I am not asking for wins specifically.. i am asking for a pattern of play.

Linkages

Set ups...


It doesnt have to be every moment .... but it does have to be something thats recognisable....

We cannot afford to slip into past mistakes once again.

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One other thing....

a gameplan is not moving the ball forward fast or slowing it down... its doing it all...... its knowing when to go through the middle and kicking it long and when to slow down and play possesion...

When you know how to do whatever you have to do and it is working thats a gameplan that works,

So when you ask me well Synbad what do you suggest.....
a) move the ball directly
b) possesion footy
c) blah blah blah.....

Which one???

Its all of them... dependng on the game...

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I believe we do have a pattern of play and a reasonably standard game plan. But its going to take a while for the players to come to terms with it.

We are going from 5 years of players doing what they're told to expecting them to make good decisions. its going to be a slow process.
Its no different to doing an apprenticeship or being in the education system. There's only so much knowledge you can effectively put in someones head before it becomes superfluous. It takes years to develop players, not weeks.

We have a core group of players who have a "basic" understanding of whats required. If you put them on the training track, they could reasonably execute an effective game simulation.
But put "experienced" and "knowledgeable" opposition on the ground and we struggle to make the right decision at the right time.

Our opponents flood our forward line because they know we struggle to counter it. They run their forwards up the ground because it removes our runners from behind the ball. Hence, we take the ball at half back and have no one running past for the handball.
Our players understand that someone should be doing it. But who? How do they get there without an opponent?
It takes time.

We also have experienced players who are trying to make it happen at the expence of themselves, and the team.
Carrazzo is a perfect example. He has become an uncontested ball player who tries to create the link. He runs past and calls for handballs to move the play. Thats not his role. He's not being selfish. He's trying to establish a running link. If he doesnt do it, who will?
Gibbs would be good. Simmo? Stevens?
They'd be great but the opposition know that. They'll sit on them and leave Carrots loose. They know who's disposal hurts and who's doesnt.
Carrots and Scotland had 2 or 3 contested balls on Saturday. Gibbs had 10 and Murph had 8. ( team highs)
Thats got to change for us to succeed. Carrots has to be winning the hard ball and hacking to his teammates. Not cruising past for handballs.

T/Bird is another perfect example. How did he get 25 possessions against the Tigers?
They let him have them. The days of grabbing opponents after marks/free kicks are gone. The easiest way to slow down play and allow your numbers ahead of the ball is to force your opposition to go back or sideways to a static position intentionally.

Our players will eventually have most of their set ups right and dictate the streams of play but its small steps. TBird will put himself in an offensive position or assist a teammate to become a running option. At the moment our handball recieve stats are too low. Look at the handball/kick ratio compared to St Kildas. They ran the ball from defence and worked for each other. That requires knowledgeable players who know where to position themselves and team mates who can create a vacuum of space for them to work in.
But lets remember, they're the best part of 3 years older than our team with almost double the average games. Plus they havent been totally deprived of strategic development for years like our players.

As for positives, there are plenty. Watch our players and they are working hard to create space. Good teams create space 40 metres ahead of the kicker by drawing opponents out of the area.
Our players are doing that really well. They sacrifice there own game to allow a lead up option to win the ball uncontested.
That is a big step from last year.

Our backline is defending quite well which is the first step. We now need to work on being offensive. We need to remove one of the talls IMO and put some pace in there. We also need more players who can play the spare man well.
The other clubs know who is good at it and sit on them. We need more players experienced at the role. Once again, it will take time.

As for Saturdays game, I was filthy at losing but the positives are obvious imo. In the past, we had no idea how to counter them with Pagan at the helm. They gave us some absolute floggings.
We just disnt take our chances enough on Saturday. We had more inside 50s. We missed some easy shots in the second quarter (Fev and Stevo, out on the full, JR missed a sitter right in front, Eddie put the ball behind Fish who was running into an open goal)
In the 3rd quarter we had 12 inside 50s for 4 points!. St Kilda had 6 scoring shots for 4.2.

We need to get our forward line structured better. I'd put Waite to the forward line. Jamo, T/Bird and Carlos can more than supply the height with Bower. We're too tall with Waite there as well.
Fev needs to pull his head in. Hudghton has been his nemesis for years and he needs to get over it. He concedes before he even gets out there.

All in all. We're getting there. There are plenty of signs that were'nt theree last year. If we can get our handball recieve stats up, we'll be on our way.
Rattens not a magician. He'll even make mistakes along the way but he's giving our kids the knowledge they require. He's filling a void that existed for 5 years. It cant be fixed overnight.

Get 3 more years into our kids like St Kilda have and you'll see a quality outfit.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I was livid at some of the errors i saw when at the game on Saturday night but having watched the game afterwards i tend to agree there is a better system in place than previous years

Alot of the game was 50/50 in which team would score and it just seemed that the Saints would make the score

i didnt see the 3rd quarter result as being 4 goals to 4 points was reasonably even in the play and we had oppertunities to score just didnt take our chances where as the Saints got the result on the board

I counted 3 or 4 12 poiint turn arounds from the Blues failing to capitalise and the Saints then getting back to there side and scoring.

Betts plaed well just didnt finish off his good work but presented well and was a moving target
There where a few silly pieces of play poor decision making or just silly mistakes
ie Stevo handball to Judd in a open goal / Simpson passing when he could have gone for the Goal same with Fisher running into goal and fumbling at the worst time.

Overall i think if some of the play had benn executed better we would have been far closer in this game so this makes me think the Gameplan is going in the right direction just need as suggested better drilling in executing our finishing work and also players need to make better decisions instead of sometimes being too safe.

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CFC TAC Squad everyone over 25 must be traded sounds like Loguns Run

No one has suggested that Ratten be given 5 yrs - however it would not be unreasonable to give him ONE year for distinctive patterns of play to emerge - that was the whole point of my post. Surely ONE year isnt too much to ask?

If Ratten cant achieve that then he should be gone by mid 2009 - but at the very least give him a year before sinking the boots in.

I've only watched the first half of the game (the rest to watch tonight), but to me it was obvious that not only did we have a gameplan, but most of the players were doing their best to implement it. The skills are definitely better (coming off an admittedly low base), and I expect it will all start to click before season's end.

Overall... my opinion hasn't changed. We'll have a year like Hawthorn did two seasons ago. A slow start, some good wins along the way, and a fairly positive end to the season to give us impetus for 2009.

Great post Blue Vain & 4th Chicken.

Syners, I know that you are not a fan of Ratts as coach, but why? who would you have liked as coach or was it the process that you disagreed with?

Our game plan sucks ... its slow ... its boring ... it does not give our forwards much opportunity.

I can't go though another crap season.

Come on Ratts ...

Go back to Clarksons first year as coach and look at his record 5-17 and lots of criticism about the Hawks playing a high posession game that didnt seem to go anywhere or have any direction, ugly to watch, blah, blah, blah-and this was with Franklin, Roughead et al in the side.

In his second season after a poor or average start I have a vague memory of Clarkson being taken to town by our very literate (not)football media and there were even suggestions-probably by mark robinson-that he get sacked. I think they finished out of the 8 that year and then we know thye had a good year in 07.

Clarkson drafted young players, wasnt afraid to trade established players, taught them, stuck by his convictions and toughed it out, was given time by the powers that be, etc, etc. We have a new coaching and fitness regime who are teaching the players a new game plan and even though I struggle to see what it is sometimes I now know that it was me with the unrealistic expectations of the team rather than the players who I thought with Judd in the side just had to run out onto a footy field and who would then be transformed into a highly skilled, hard running, tough, football unit with magical powers of football telepathy that can only come from spending lots of time and a few seasons together working hard to develop a team-all after 1 pre-season.

Suck it in people it going to be a while before start seeing a turnaround.

We should PM this to every user on TC.

Great post BV.

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

Why?
Most of us know that we haven't got the required fitness/intensity/ knowhow to run and create links to beat the flood.

I fail to see why it should take '3 years' to attain a level of fitness/intensity/knowhow to be competitive.

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There's so much I could say...

Sounds good BV but our blokes just don’t run hard enough to make or get into position.

We have too many passengers in our side who wait for the next bloke to do something. Apart from Simpson I don’t see anyone else busting a gut to run hard to break the lines. Do you see any of our blokes who walk off the ground exhausted?? Players like Betts, Russell at the end of each game look as though they can play another four quarters.

Even the way we execute our tackling skills is a joke…surely we can lay a tackle without it getting broken. Our players should watch Bryce Gibbs lay a tackle that’s the way its done. Other players like Scotland and Houlihan don’t work hard enough to block, tackle, shepherd, chase…its always the easy ball they are after.

Very frustrating but hopefully things will change sooner rather then later because at the moment I don’t think we can beat anyone in the competition bar Melbourne