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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:59 am 
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formerly Josh Kaplan

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I think everyone here is missing the point besides Synbad.
Look at Hawthorns defence- Brown, Gilham, Croad, Birchall- 2 former rejects, one mid 30's pick, one rookie.
Sydney- Roberts Thompson, Bolton, Kennelly, Barry- rejects, no hoperrs, Irishmen
Adelaide- Rutten, Bassett, Bock, Johncock etc- again players nobody gave a chance to and one taken in the draft at 70+ have turned into a cohesive unit in defence.
Roos- Firrito, Pratt, etc

The problem with our team is that we dont play for EACH other. We dont gut run for one another, get back to help each other out in defence, tackle in numbers, basically do all the things that the good teams do.

We dont need top ten picks to do this as BO suggests, we need an injection of spirit and a well drilled gameplan, something the Malthouses, Worsfolds Craigs Roos's and even bluddy Laidley's of this world know how to execute and get from their players. Our challenge is to have Ratten execute a similar mindset in our players.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:02 am 
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formerly blue-insider
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Location: Caaaaaarlton
Barack Obama wrote:
Synbad wrote:
Barack Obama wrote:
Synbad wrote:
TruBlueBrad wrote:
Synbad wrote:
Barack Obama wrote:
Synbad wrote:
In my little mind... we have no excuses to be just floundering...

even if its round 1


we need to see patterns of players understanding the game...

if we cant there something seriously wrong...


We've spent every year since 2003 being drilled to play a long kicking game which does not work any more given the way the game is now played. If you had Carey and Jonathan Brown running around your forward line at their peak maybe...maybe. It will take time to adjust to a short possession game plan which requires sharp decision making and pinpoint skills. I think we have the midfielders to do it (Judd, Murphy, Stevens, Gibbs, Simpson). I don't think we have the bookends. Get those and we're set.


Ok so now we have to go out and get Rutten and Brown or we cant play?????


He's not talking about Rutten and Brown...


who is he talking about???


and BO.. Livingston doesnt play for us anylonger... either does Hotton...

We have alist no worse than anyones..... we need momentum ...


We have a lack of serious quality key position players and won't go anywhere until we get them. If you think we will you're all deluding yourselves.



Do you think this is 'Weird Science'?

If you do... youre living in lalaland...

If we draft a KP player this year he will be 4 years away...
You cant have everything in this age of drafting and salary caps....



What you can do is drill the players into a single unit...


4 years aways is perfect. That's when we'll be challenging for a premiership, 3-4 years. Look at Hawthorn, the basis of their success is going to be their dominant forwardline on Roughead, Franklin, Boyle and Thorp. Of those Roughead, Franklin and Thorp were picks 2, 5 and 7. (Thorp would have been a top 2 in most drafts other than the superdraft). They got their batch of key position players with early picks. We need to do the same. Now of course key position players aren't always top timber early in the draft. In 2005 there weren't that many. In 2006 there were but we got rooted out of a priority pick. I hope KReuzer can make it as a CHF, I think that's where we need him. In 2004 we had to go and win 10 games. This year there are a lot of quality key position players.....

If you think Thornton, Waite and Jamison are going to be able to stop the likes of Franklin, Roughead, Boyle and Thorp, or a Geelong forward line led by Hawkins, Mooney, Ottens, you're dreaming. And next week we're going to have a tough time manning RIewoldt, Kosi, Gherig. And when we kick it down there Fev is triple teamed while we have the stellar options of second gamer Jake Edwards, Fisher who can barely kick it 40 metres, Hartlett if he's not injured or rubbed out...We need more key positions, simple. Until we have those, you can drill us as much as you like but we're going to struggle.


You're both right. You're as good as your weakest link. We have a whole chain of them! Wiggins, Saddington, Bannister, Carrazzo and Bower all options for playing in the 1s - is just embarrasing.

But synbad is right. The current group is not hungry for the ball and not willing to play the 'win at all costs' game - that we all saw during the 80s and 90s.

So what do you do?
Put your faith in Ratten. Put your faith in the current board.
Pay your membership. Turn up each week. And hope.

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No matter how long it takes Carlton to rebuild, they will still win a premiership before Essendon* and Collingwood.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:17 am 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:01 pm
Posts: 2099
Josh Kaplan wrote:
I think everyone here is missing the point besides Synbad.
Look at Hawthorns defence- Brown, Gilham, Croad, Birchall- 2 former rejects, one mid 30's pick, one rookie.
Sydney- Roberts Thompson, Bolton, Kennelly, Barry- rejects, no hoperrs, Irishmen
Adelaide- Rutten, Bassett, Bock, Johncock etc- again players nobody gave a chance to and one taken in the draft at 70+ have turned into a cohesive unit in defence.
Roos- Firrito, Pratt, etc

The problem with our team is that we dont play for EACH other. We dont gut run for one another, get back to help each other out in defence, tackle in numbers, basically do all the things that the good teams do.

We dont need top ten picks to do this as BO suggests, we need an injection of spirit and a well drilled gameplan, something the Malthouses, Worsfolds Craigs Roos's and even bluddy Laidley's of this world know how to execute and get from their players. Our challenge is to have Ratten execute a similar mindset in our players.


POW

I get fed up with those who question the talent in our back half when we have got Tex, Waite, Scotland, T-Bird and promising players like Bower, Santy and Jamo etc who can contribute. There is ENOUGH there.

It's spirit, pride in the jumper and selflessness that's lacking in too many at the moment. Anyone see N Brown hold Pavlich to ONE goal the other day? The team lacks this X factor at the moment. Unlike the Carlton of old, we get intimidated and lack self belief and this CULTURE issue must be addressed before we can go forward.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:20 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:39 pm
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blue-insider wrote:
But synbad is right. The current group is not hungry for the ball and not willing to play the 'win at all costs' game - that we all saw during the 80s and 90s.



And that my friends is the price you pay for TANKING!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:42 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Josh Kaplan wrote:
I think everyone here is missing the point besides Synbad.
Look at Hawthorns defence- Brown, Gilham, Croad, Birchall- 2 former rejects, one mid 30's pick, one rookie.
Sydney- Roberts Thompson, Bolton, Kennelly, Barry- rejects, no hoperrs, Irishmen
Adelaide- Rutten, Bassett, Bock, Johncock etc- again players nobody gave a chance to and one taken in the draft at 70+ have turned into a cohesive unit in defence.
Roos- Firrito, Pratt, etc

The problem with our team is that we dont play for EACH other. We dont gut run for one another, get back to help each other out in defence, tackle in numbers, basically do all the things that the good teams do.

We dont need top ten picks to do this as BO suggests, we need an injection of spirit and a well drilled gameplan, something the Malthouses, Worsfolds Craigs Roos's and even bluddy Laidley's of this world know how to execute and get from their players. Our challenge is to have Ratten execute a similar mindset in our players.


hang on Josh, lets untangle a few things here.

Okay so we are fairly happy with the list (BO wants a few more but the rest seem okay)

We have now got a new coach and a strong board and money spend in areas that needed money etc

and so we expect changes/improvement - all of us do.

And the argument as far as I can tell appears to be about how quickly we might see that improvement

Is Synbad saying we should already be seeing it?

And is that what you agree with?

Because if it is I disagree. In many respects this is the hard bit now. No excuses. No a grader crap/tanking stuff (and in a way Steve is right - tanking is only a part of the process and affects, negatively, the next part - why work hard when it is apparent the club's goal is new talent - and maybe you are not a part of that goal?)

What has to happen over the course of this season is

a) Ratts keeps drilling in the game plan.

b) players accept we have entered a new stage, they have survived the culling and can now put their heads down., bums up, work their arses off and they may just survive into a full blown career. Players like Banno/Wiggens and so forth are not stupid, how many of them really believed they'd still be around? They are.

c) Ratts has to convince them the opportunities are real, that he will give them all chances so long they work their arses off for the team and do all the team things (like when a player points to their man because he has slipped away, the player pointed to takes off after them without thought)

d) The team needs to develop a strong understanding, a realization this is it, this is the team, no more culling, its up to them and grab the opportunity and learn who each other is - their strengths/weaknesses etc. And that all are equal - all have an equal part to play.

e) That Ratts and his team must now work through who can play what role, what their weaknesses/strengths are etc.


To me expecting much more than a glimpse (which I think we got on Thursday) of the above after seven games and 1 preseason (a preseason where the culling occurred again - I am not talking about 3/4 players going - I am talking about shock choices to gain the new 'list'- Kennedy, Whitnal etc... shocks to the group, not to us the supporters, we are not part of this @#$%&! process...to them, shocking, unsettling, confronting and ultimately, undermining - is far fetched at best.

Patience.

The real work is beginning, much like that first season of Clarkson' - thats where we are, thats how far behind we slipped under Pagan, and under this habitual search for superstars. Now that we have landed Judd I hope this is over and we can concentrate on building a TEAM.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:30 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Good post Dannyboy.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:33 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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I suppose we can give Ratts 5 years..... ok....


Look.. there is no excuse to not have players looking like they know what to do.... (unless were recriting some of the dumbest players to have ever played the game .. ever....)

There is no excuse to not have players that want to run and back each other up... unless they have their hands and legs painted on and theyre just a bunch of invalids...

We have a group of plyers that dont know what to do and are not zealous at working hard...

Its simple....

If it doesnt kick in soon.. ill start barracking for Rich.. and pick 1 and 2....

Cos thats the best we will be able to salvage for this season...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:46 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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How is a bloke supposed to take over a side and completely change the way they play in 7 games? Especially when they have been bashed around the head for 5 years and haven't had a strong core group of leaders?

If we get more of the same each week for the next 10 weeks, I'm with you. Until then, I think you're going too hard too early.

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Last edited by aboynamedsue on Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:51 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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If we had had Hampson, Kreuzer and Fisher available on Thursday night the picture would have looked a lot different. (obviously Walker).

Judd, Hadley, Cloke, and Stevens were perhaps slightly underdone.

Instead of taking advantage of a 4 goal lead and burying the Tigers, we got run over both physically and mentally.

Things have to change, we shouldn't panic but we need to show heart and character.

The bombers are all over the Kangaroos today, by nearly 50 points, and that is the heart, spirit and self belief that we need to have in our team.

We need Jamison, Thornton, Wait etc to be strong in defence.

We need Edwards and Fevola and Kreuzer etc to work together and be smart in the forward line.

We need that spark of magic from Betts.

We have the players as such, but need to get the best out of them.


There will always be fine tuning.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:56 pm 
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Ken Hands

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 10:45 pm
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even more depsressing after watching Essendon* today.
Essednons kids are exciting. they're already shown improvement. Carlton is still shit. even after all this time. 5 years of making excuses.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:06 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Abaddon wrote:
even more depsressing after watching Essendon* today.
Essednons kids are exciting. they're already shown improvement. Carlton is still shit. even after all this time. 5 years of making excuses.


Essendon* aren't recovering from 5-6 years of being a rabble (on and off field), and they still have some good on-field leaders who have played in premierships for the club.

I'm not making excuses for Carlton (and I agree it's depressing), I'm just saying there are reasons for why we won't improve as quickly as some other clubs. It's still going to be a long way back for us, let's face it...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:09 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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aboynamedsue wrote:
Abaddon wrote:
even more depsressing after watching Essendon* today.
Essednons kids are exciting. they're already shown improvement. Carlton is still shit. even after all this time. 5 years of making excuses.


Essendon* aren't recovering from 5-6 years of being a rabble (on and off field), and they still have some good on-field leaders who have played in premierships for the club.

I'm not making excuses for Carlton (and I agree it's depressing), I'm just saying there are reasons for why we won't improve as quickly as some other clubs. It's still going to be a long way back for us, let's face it...


Yeah but its their kids standing up really.. and they did it without Lucas.. not sure if Lloyd played or not....

But still.. their kids are understanding how to play a simple game...

plus a new coach... and a new game plan... and lots of ZIP!

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:12 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Lloyd kicked 6; they still have a strong defence with Michael and Fletcher down there, and competitive rucks.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:14 pm 
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Ken Hands

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aboynamedsue wrote:
Abaddon wrote:
even more depsressing after watching Essendon* today.
Essednons kids are exciting. they're already shown improvement. Carlton is still shit. even after all this time. 5 years of making excuses.


Essendon* aren't recovering from 5-6 years of being a rabble (on and off field), and they still have some good on-field leaders who have played in premierships for the club.

I'm not making excuses for Carlton (and I agree it's depressing), I'm just saying there are reasons for why we won't improve as quickly as some other clubs. It's still going to be a long way back for us, let's face it...


Have a look at their opposition too.
they defeated a top 4 team last season. and looked very impressive in the NAB cup. pushed St Kilda all they way.
We got smashed by Richmond, the worst team in the league...
Not even the most optimistic supporters would think we could defeat the Kangaroos. let alone smash em by 10 goals


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:15 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Effes wrote:
Lloyd kicked 6; they still have a strong defence with Michael and Fletcher down there, and competitive rucks.


ok so they making room for him...

And yes the 31 year old and the 33 year old defenders..........theyre doing it all by themselves.... look... teams need to understand how to link up when they habe the ball.. abd how to swarm defensively when they dont....

Whos their ruck???

Laycock and Hille?? yean they are better then ours... but we should be better when the ball hits the ground than they are...

Everything is a balance..... some is a bit better at one thing than another thing.. and some are better at something else but weaker at other stuff...

At the end of the day everybody has their positives and negatives...

The question is .. what are you doing with them???

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:17 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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you're a bad don ..a very very bad don



...but yeah, they have movement, don't they...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:18 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Synbad wrote:
aboynamedsue wrote:
Abaddon wrote:
even more depsressing after watching Essendon* today.
Essednons kids are exciting. they're already shown improvement. Carlton is still shit. even after all this time. 5 years of making excuses.


Essendon* aren't recovering from 5-6 years of being a rabble (on and off field), and they still have some good on-field leaders who have played in premierships for the club.

I'm not making excuses for Carlton (and I agree it's depressing), I'm just saying there are reasons for why we won't improve as quickly as some other clubs. It's still going to be a long way back for us, let's face it...


Yeah but its their kids standing up really.. and they did it without Lucas.. not sure if Lloyd played or not....

But still.. their kids are understanding how to play a simple game...

plus a new coach... and a new game plan... and lots of ZIP!


Yep, but don't underestimate the importance of having Lucas (even if he didn't play today), Lloyd, Fletcher, Johnson, McPhee, Rama and Michael around the club to show the way...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:19 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Abaddon wrote:
We got smashed by Richmond, the worst team in the league...
Not even the most optimistic supporters would think we could defeat the Kangaroos. let alone smash em by 10 goals



So both 5 goals and 10 goals is smashed. :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:23 pm 
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Ken Hands

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AGRO wrote:
Abaddon wrote:
We got smashed by Richmond, the worst team in the league...
Not even the most optimistic supporters would think we could defeat the Kangaroos. let alone smash em by 10 goals



So both 5 goals and 10 goals is smashed. :roll:


winning by 25 points midway through the second quarter and lose by 5 goals against a team that won 3 games last season
oh yeah wait thats a pretty good effort :roll:


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:25 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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5 years!

Now Synbad don't start putting words in mouths. Its a bad habit.

I saw improvement on Thursday

and then I saw players not working hard enough and not supporting each other - and these parts will take time - You mention Essendon* so here's an argument against the continual tankers - keep a core, recruit around the core and suddenly the core don't seem so bad after all.

Keep chucking out the bath water and eventually the baby goes out with it.

We have to now give birth all over again. It is not going to happen in the first game of a new year.

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