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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:34 pm 
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Robert Walls

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The Duke wrote:
Mil Hanna wrote:
When we play ninthmond in the first round I hope we man up on the Bowden brothers :P


Don't worry about the Bowden's - apparently Terry's told them that they will be playing the entire year in the two regardless of form - no chance of a recall due to another youth policy.
Patrick was delisted. There's only Joel now.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:34 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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camelboy wrote:
woof wrote:
camelboy wrote:
No draft = No tanking.

It's pretty simple really.


No draft = No hope for some of the 16 clubs soon to be 18.

No hope means no club.

Clubs go missing means less money for TV rights.

Less money means etc. etc. etc.

Salary cap and draft must stay.

Priority pick is the tank carrott and needs to go.

You really can't get more simple than that.


Why is there an incentive to tank? To get the earliest pick possible so a club can select the best kids possible.

Okay, say the priority picks are removed ... you reckon if 15th and 16th are playing off in R22 with the result to determine who gets #1 that there won't be a mention of tanking?

Maybe the lottery system has more merit than I first thought, but either way, having a the current draft system as the only real means of injecting new talent into a club's playing list puts clubs in a position where losing can provide more benefits than winning.

I hate to say it, but the NRL has a salary cap and no draft. How much tanking talk do you hear about in the NRL? While their system is far from perfect, it at least saves clubs from being in a severely compromised position.

If we adopted the NRL system we'd still be having contractual arguments mere weeks before the start of the season (ie. Israel Folau).

I've never been a fan of the whole lottery thing, but I see little choice but to now adopt it. But that presents another problem. What if the team who finishes 13th finishes on 7-8 wins and draws the #1 pick, while the bottom team who might finish with 4-5 wins gets #4? Would that be fair?

Do you give the bottom 4 equal chance, or do you get more chances based on where you finish? If so, would it be inconceivable a team might 'tank' for more chances?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:35 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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The Duke wrote:
In the case of a round 22 clash between 15th and 16th there's the stain of a wooden spoon as an incentive to win.

I'll bet if Ninethmond had of beaten the saints, we would of beaten Melbourne


They didn't want to give up their priority pick.

They had Foley on the bench in the last qtr when the game was in the balance, they led against St Kilda for most of the game but fortunately for them they were able to lose. Wallet admitted as much :lol:

But tanking has only ever happened at Carlton according to the imbeciles out there :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:37 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Fevola wrote:
Harf basically when asked if Carlton had cheated said the following:

- NO
- Every club that finished bottom 4 prepare for the next season
- We were not good enough to win no matter who was playing
- Players dont do these sorts of things
- What is Weezels drawfs agenda ? He reckons he got paid for the interview. Also reckons trying to get exposure because coaching out in the country will not get him noticed
- There is no such thing as tanking, if you are on the bottom you are not good. Thats it
- Attacked a caller who said its crap how people bet on these games, and then tanking happens. Harf said everything Carlton did was out in the open, its not like players were dropped on the day of game, it was clearly specified on the team sheets, so people have no excuses on betting as they know what they are in for
- Basically said that playing Hammo was a classic point in what Carlton were trying to achieve.
- Harf was emphatic in that we were transparent in the whole process in declaring straight up we were playing youngsters and that players that had no future would not be playing. Youngsters needed to be tested. We did not hide anything. Ratten said this all along
- Real match fixers are teams that are making finals and will not alter ladder position, and losing on purpose to make money.

Expect Harf's "resignation" from SEN very soon ;)

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#GUILTY


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:38 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Donstuie wrote:
Fevola wrote:
Harf basically when asked if Carlton had cheated said the following:

- NO
- Every club that finished bottom 4 prepare for the next season
- We were not good enough to win no matter who was playing
- Players dont do these sorts of things
- What is Weezels drawfs agenda ? He reckons he got paid for the interview. Also reckons trying to get exposure because coaching out in the country will not get him noticed
- There is no such thing as tanking, if you are on the bottom you are not good. Thats it
- Attacked a caller who said its crap how people bet on these games, and then tanking happens. Harf said everything Carlton did was out in the open, its not like players were dropped on the day of game, it was clearly specified on the team sheets, so people have no excuses on betting as they know what they are in for
- Basically said that playing Hammo was a classic point in what Carlton were trying to achieve.
- Harf was emphatic in that we were transparent in the whole process in declaring straight up we were playing youngsters and that players that had no future would not be playing. Youngsters needed to be tested. We did not hide anything. Ratten said this all along
- Real match fixers are teams that are making finals and will not alter ladder position, and losing on purpose to make money.

Expect Harf's "resignation" from SEN very soon ;)


KB was happy to go on about Thornton's injury before Carlton had a chance to respond; but it's not surprising coming from KB is it? So out of touch with the game.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:39 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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BlueWorld wrote:
Patrick was delisted. There's only Joel now.


Pffft, see what I mean?

TANKERS!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:40 pm 
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Herald Sun columnist
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Fevola wrote:
Harf basically when asked if Carlton had cheated said the following:

- NO
- Every club that finished bottom 4 prepare for the next season
- We were not good enough to win no matter who was playing
- Players dont do these sorts of things
- What is Weezels drawfs agenda ? He reckons he got paid for the interview. Also reckons trying to get exposure because coaching out in the country will not get him noticed
- There is no such thing as tanking, if you are on the bottom you are not good. Thats it
- Attacked a caller who said its crap how people bet on these games, and then tanking happens. Harf said everything Carlton did was out in the open, its not like players were dropped on the day of game, it was clearly specified on the team sheets, so people have no excuses on betting as they know what they are in for
- Basically said that playing Hammo was a classic point in what Carlton were trying to achieve.
- Harf was emphatic in that we were transparent in the whole process in declaring straight up we were playing youngsters and that players that had no future would not be playing. Youngsters needed to be tested. We did not hide anything. Ratten said this all along
- Real match fixers are teams that are making finals and will not alter ladder position, and losing on purpose to make money.


Thanks for that Fev.

Whilst not many would classify Harford as a Carlton person, given the number of games played, he has shown great loyalty to the club.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:41 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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The comment about Thornton having an operation that he didnt need was the filthiest part of the whole thing.... and could well be the subject of a lible case.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:41 pm 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
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Yeah what happened in the last five minutes in that tigers v saints game.
Tigers had it in the bag. Cant believe they lost.

..oh what was Wallace going on about in the press conference after that game.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:45 pm 
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Horrie Clover
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Donstuie wrote:
camelboy wrote:
woof wrote:
camelboy wrote:
No draft = No tanking.

It's pretty simple really.


No draft = No hope for some of the 16 clubs soon to be 18.

No hope means no club.

Clubs go missing means less money for TV rights.

Less money means etc. etc. etc.

Salary cap and draft must stay.

Priority pick is the tank carrott and needs to go.

You really can't get more simple than that.


Why is there an incentive to tank? To get the earliest pick possible so a club can select the best kids possible.

Okay, say the priority picks are removed ... you reckon if 15th and 16th are playing off in R22 with the result to determine who gets #1 that there won't be a mention of tanking?

Maybe the lottery system has more merit than I first thought, but either way, having a the current draft system as the only real means of injecting new talent into a club's playing list puts clubs in a position where losing can provide more benefits than winning.

I hate to say it, but the NRL has a salary cap and no draft. How much tanking talk do you hear about in the NRL? While their system is far from perfect, it at least saves clubs from being in a severely compromised position.

If we adopted the NRL system we'd still be having contractual arguments mere weeks before the start of the season (ie. Israel Folau).

I've never been a fan of the whole lottery thing, but I see little choice but to now adopt it. But that presents another problem. What if the team who finishes 13th finishes on 7-8 wins and draws the #1 pick, while the bottom team who might finish with 4-5 wins gets #4? Would that be fair?

Do you give the bottom 4 equal chance, or do you get more chances based on where you finish? If so, would it be inconceivable a team might 'tank' for more chances?


The NBA system in the U.S. is probably the fairest. The bottom team might get 16 balls in the lottery (out of 136), second bottom 15, third bottom 14 and so on......the top team would get only one ball. Balls are picked out and that team gets the draft pick from 1 onwards.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:47 pm 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
Posts: 9108
Location: Nth Fitzroy
Bunks wrote:
Donstuie wrote:
camelboy wrote:
woof wrote:
camelboy wrote:
No draft = No tanking.

It's pretty simple really.


No draft = No hope for some of the 16 clubs soon to be 18.

No hope means no club.

Clubs go missing means less money for TV rights.

Less money means etc. etc. etc.

Salary cap and draft must stay.

Priority pick is the tank carrott and needs to go.

You really can't get more simple than that.


Why is there an incentive to tank? To get the earliest pick possible so a club can select the best kids possible.

Okay, say the priority picks are removed ... you reckon if 15th and 16th are playing off in R22 with the result to determine who gets #1 that there won't be a mention of tanking?

Maybe the lottery system has more merit than I first thought, but either way, having a the current draft system as the only real means of injecting new talent into a club's playing list puts clubs in a position where losing can provide more benefits than winning.

I hate to say it, but the NRL has a salary cap and no draft. How much tanking talk do you hear about in the NRL? While their system is far from perfect, it at least saves clubs from being in a severely compromised position.

If we adopted the NRL system we'd still be having contractual arguments mere weeks before the start of the season (ie. Israel Folau).

I've never been a fan of the whole lottery thing, but I see little choice but to now adopt it. But that presents another problem. What if the team who finishes 13th finishes on 7-8 wins and draws the #1 pick, while the bottom team who might finish with 4-5 wins gets #4? Would that be fair?

Do you give the bottom 4 equal chance, or do you get more chances based on where you finish? If so, would it be inconceivable a team might 'tank' for more chances?


The NBA system in the U.S. is probably the fairest. The bottom team might get 16 balls in the lottery (out of 136), second bottom 15, third bottom 14 and so on......the top team would get only one ball. Balls are picked out and that team gets the draft pick from 1 onwards.


The AFL would need to have a lot of balls to try that system out.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:51 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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This was purely a ratings grab by McGuire's Footy Show in the opening episode of the season.

Hutchison has been after a big story for that show, and Liberatore was a walk up start for him...
..from Brownlow Medal to Assistant Coach who has been unsuccessful in getting a Senior gig with any Senior Club..
..to attacking his former Club, the Bulldogs; it's President and their Coach.....to accusing Carlton of tanking....all on national Television.

Hutchison is a piranha who will always seek out the weak and the willing for a "big" story.

During the "interview"....I could almost see and hear McGuire rubbing his hands with glee and saying "It's been a HUGE week in Football"...... :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:52 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Warby wrote:
This was purely a ratings grab by McGuire's Footy Show in the opening episode of the season.

Hutchison has been after a big story for that show, and Liberatore was a walk up start for him...
..from Brownlow Medal to Assistant Coach who has been unsuccessful in getting a Senior gig with any Senior Club..
..to attacking his former Club, the Bulldogs; it's President and their Coach.....to accusing Carlton of tanking....all on national Television.

Hutchison is a piranha who will always seek out the weak and the willing for a "big" story.

During the "interview"....I could almost see and hear McGuire rubbing his hands with glee and saying "It's been a HUGE week in Football"...... :roll:


Maguire is still bitter, like so many opposition fans, about missing out on Judd.

Especially when Swann was part of the deal to get JUDD to Carlton. :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:54 pm 
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Ken Hands

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Gilly34 wrote:
We need a Royal COmmission into McChin and Hutchy's obvious manipulation of the media FLOWER it. Why hasn't anybody thought about that? eh?


I agree.
That was the most disgraceful interview/questioning technique I have ever seen.
Gutter journalism at its worst.
McChin would never have allowed that to go to air if it was the pies in question.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:55 pm 
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Robert Walls
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The Duke wrote:
Mil Hanna wrote:
When we play ninthmond in the first round I hope we man up on the Bowden brothers :P


Don't worry about the Bowden's - apparently Terry's told them that they will be playing the entire year in the two regardless of form - no chance of a recall due to another youth policy.


I could be wrong but wasn't Patrick Bowden delisted??

(Oops - should have read the rest of the posts before replying)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:56 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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4everBlue wrote:
Gilly34 wrote:
We need a Royal COmmission into McChin and Hutchy's obvious manipulation of the media FLOWER it. Why hasn't anybody thought about that? eh?


I agree.
That was the most disgraceful interview/questioning technique I have ever seen.
Gutter journalism at its worst.
McChin would never have allowed that to go to air if it was the pies in question.


Hutchy should do an investigation regarding the round 19 game in 2005 against north melbourne, where Collingwood were up by 3 goals with a few minutes remaining but lost the game. :lol:

Then he'd also have to investigate Fremantle in 99, Kangaroos 2006, Hawthorn 2005 and Richmond in round 22 last year :lol:

Come on Hutchy :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:03 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Demetriou and Fitzpatrick on SEN now...

Hasn’t seen Libba interview, but has requested a transcript and read some snippets. If Tony Liberatore has a specific allegation the AFL invites him in to speak to AFL General Operations. If he puts a specific allegation forward the AFL will look into it.

Received a call from Greg Swann at 7:30 this morning, Swann said we will make ourselves available to anyone at the AFL to speak to our personnel, coaches and administration. Jabba said he respected Swann for getting on the front foot.

Again I invite Libba in to air a sepcifci allegation and if he does we will look into it.

The league will be unlikely to scrap the priority pick.

Given Libba has done interview on TFS, he can't see a reason why he wouldn't present his "specific allegation" to the AFL.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:06 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Donstuie wrote:
camelboy wrote:
woof wrote:
camelboy wrote:
No draft = No tanking.

It's pretty simple really.


No draft = No hope for some of the 16 clubs soon to be 18.

No hope means no club.

Clubs go missing means less money for TV rights.

Less money means etc. etc. etc.

Salary cap and draft must stay.

Priority pick is the tank carrott and needs to go.

You really can't get more simple than that.


Why is there an incentive to tank? To get the earliest pick possible so a club can select the best kids possible.

Okay, say the priority picks are removed ... you reckon if 15th and 16th are playing off in R22 with the result to determine who gets #1 that there won't be a mention of tanking?

Maybe the lottery system has more merit than I first thought, but either way, having a the current draft system as the only real means of injecting new talent into a club's playing list puts clubs in a position where losing can provide more benefits than winning.

I hate to say it, but the NRL has a salary cap and no draft. How much tanking talk do you hear about in the NRL? While their system is far from perfect, it at least saves clubs from being in a severely compromised position.

If we adopted the NRL system we'd still be having contractual arguments mere weeks before the start of the season (ie. Israel Folau).

I've never been a fan of the whole lottery thing, but I see little choice but to now adopt it. But that presents another problem. What if the team who finishes 13th finishes on 7-8 wins and draws the #1 pick, while the bottom team who might finish with 4-5 wins gets #4? Would that be fair?

Do you give the bottom 4 equal chance, or do you get more chances based on where you finish? If so, would it be inconceivable a team might 'tank' for more chances?


Like I said, the NRL system isn't perfect. And I didn't suggest the exact same system be adopted. ;)

Find me another industry that effectively dictates where players have to start their careers. The draft, while perfect in theory, has so many normally unacceptable compromises in so many aspects of workplace conditions it's not funny.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:09 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Maybe I misread KB this morning... I thought when he was speaking to Smith and Denham that he was being pretty reasonable about the situation while the two journos were trying to create momentum for the story...

point in case was the money aspect - KB was pretty strong in highlighting the potential payment as a motivating factor, while the two journos (surprise surprise) dismissed it out of hand.

To me KB was at worst neutral, possibly pro-Carlton.



Liked Demetriou's comments above - the ball is in Libba's court now, no way he'll step forward with a 'Tanks very much' as his silver bullet.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:11 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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camelboy wrote:

Find me another industry that effectively dictates where players have to start their careers. The draft, while perfect in theory, has so many normally unacceptable compromises in so many aspects of workplace conditions it's not funny.


The AFL draft is compromised. The NFL draft is the best mechanism I know of for bringing in new players.


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