Nah my cred went out the window when I told you all Pagan was useless

Setanta has had one good game against an out of form Barry Hall where we got flogged by 92 points. Having Push and shove with Lloyd and then getting 6 kicked on you doesn't constitute a good game to me.

Livo was never - repeat that never given the chance that this bloke has been given - and Setanta is almost as injury prone as Livo was .

Livo had good games against Neitz- Rocca - Bradshaw - struggled a bit with leading forwards but had far more capabilites than Setanta . Livo made one mistake got a couple kicked on him Pagan would drag him and then drop him the next week- Setanta has had the luxury of running around getting whooped by his opponent and never dropped and I would go as far to say that if he wasn't Irish he would have been delisted by now.

Not only that we constantly bag Ackland for his out put but if I was choosing the side I would have him in before Setanta

Setanta is a fantasy that lives in the minds of people looking for that miracle that will never happen

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

SB - you're dead wrong on this one. Having sat through the horror that was the Gabba whacking last year, the difference between the mindsets of these two players couldn't be more striking. Setanta always tries and tries, no matter if he's getting his arse handed to him - Ackland can still be one of the premier ruckmen in the competition, but appears to have limited love for the game and drops his workrate too often.

I don't think anyone really expects that O'Hailpin will get spoken of in the same terms as Silvagni in the future - but he's loved because during our most miserable time he has kept standing up and asking what he could do to help get us out of it. I've yet to see that from Ackland - although I actually believe that if he got it right, a lot of people on here would be eating an awful lot of humble pie.

As for Livo - I had a lot of respect for the man and I think you're right that he was denied plenty of chances - but Jarusa is right - we couldn't take the gamble on the injury front.....

Livo was slow, undersized and had poor reaction time, apart from that he had disposal that would get him benched in division 4 ammos. If Setanta was being groomed as a fwd I'd share your pessimism about him, because he's missing a lot of the know how needed. But as Brizzy mentioned, he has a tenacity that no one else in the team has and when you couple that with his physical attributes, you're not far off having an extremely effective key defender.

I have just realised why most of us supporters living up north are constantly having to justify our understanding of the game - Thanks SB .

Livo had plenty of opportunities and probably was eventually detroyed by Pagans inability to nurture players but hey shit happens.

Livo panicked when under pressure and his subsequent delivery placed teamates under undue pressure.

Carlos backs himself to take on oppostion and when it comes off it is spectacular. Sure its not that often that it comes off but the big difference is he is learning the game is the worst side in our history. Livo was brought up playing this game and came into a side that contained the Likes of SOS, Ratten, Mackay, Manton etc etc etc etc etc etc. Players who had played in finals and grand finals. Surely he could have learnt something from them.

Carlos was a purely speculative pick wherase Livo was taken #4.

You wonder why we persit? Its becuase after 6 years Livo showed Sweet @#$%&! All yet the gamble with nothing to lose has shown heaps.

Upon hearing this news, a few of the boys down at my local rugby club were shocked. They reckon Setanta should be locked away and probed in every way possible. This is a true breakthrough opportunity for medical science - A Pacific Islander has lost weight!

Seriously though, the bloke is considered a world class athlete. WORLD CLASS. The comparisons to Livo are pointless, but here's mine:

Category: Carlos/Livo

Good Bloke: Yes/Yes
Sponge for information: Yes/No
Athletic Ability: Yes/No

and so on, and so on....

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.

Where you are taken on the list doesn't justify keeping or not keeping you .

Your either good enough or your not .

I'm sure all the other players on the list or who can't get on the list can justify Setanta being there because he tries hard .

Give me a @#$%&! break every single player bust there arses trying to maintain there spot the fact that this bloke has to hang back with Kouta to learn what everyone else does naturally doesn't me he tries harder it means he trying to catch up, and at his age he is rapidly running out of time .

I will go as far to say I would have kept dodgy knee Whitnal on the list before this bloke

So Mark if living up north as you say means I don't have an understanding of tha game then well thats your opinion , and if not having a understanding of the games is looking at realities and not fantasies then I dont have a clue.

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Show me somebody who will unseat the incumbent.

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.

Thats bullshit, outright BS.
No disrespect to you personally, but Lance over Setanta,
Come on.
Lance frequently came back out of shape, didnt try and never showed he had the right attitude, a water, cos he was VERY talented, but could not be arsed.
Give me a tryer over a bluffing talented player any and every day.

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'Cause I'm J.U.D.D
I'm dynamite
J.U.D.D
And I'll win that fight
J.U.D.D
I'm a power load
J.U.D.D, Watch me explode

He was as still probably is and always will be a better player

and to say Lance has never tried is speculation .

Lance had a weight issue so what he could still play

and judging by BB post Setanta now has a weight issue and is not capable of playing .

We delist Lance cause he puts on 7 kg should we now then delist list a bloke for losing 15kg - you tell me

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

No.

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.

Lance didn't have a weight issue. He had an issue with doing the required work, which led to him turning up fat all the time. I think it's called being unprofessional.

Pretty different to a guy getting a virus and losing weight as a result.

Pay a bit more attention - that is most definately not what I was saying.


Youve choosen to compare Setanta to Livo which is like comparing chalk to cheese.

Livo was taken with pick 4 and by rights should have been a shining light in a time or darkness not a beacon of derision.

Instead Livo was a VFL star who couldnt deliver on the big stage.

If he was so @#$%&! deprived of opportunitues why in gods name didnt one of the other 15 AFL clubs take a punt on him if he was so good.


Setanta was taken as an international rookie at minimum cost in a gamble designed to beat the crippling draconian draft penalties implosed by a vindictive little hypocryte.

He has shown more than most would have expected of him hence the match committees/ coaches continued faith in him.

Right now I have no doubt that Malthouse or Roo's wouldnt hesitate in picking up the Irish lad if he was available.

As for hanging back with Kouta its a shame that the rest of our so called stars didnt show as much desire to succeed.

I too would have kept Whitnall but only a Whitnall who lived and breathed football not the Whitnall who lived football and ate pizza and certainaly not at the expense of Setanta.

Malthouse and Roos chose Irish players that were lightening fast and not big - We have choosen giant atheletes - different type of player all together Kennelly gets away with his lack of skills by and football instinct by using his pace to give him time to think and dispose of the ball properly same goes for Clarke - Setanta hasn't got that thats why he makes lots of mistakes he is rushed

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Are you saying Setanta is a snail? Livo was supposed to be very quick based on draft camp results but in reality looked lumberinig.

From what I have seen Carlos is one of the quicker big blokes around.

He is Big Fast and has a good aerobic motor.

He is a nightmare to match up upon for the opposition coaches. Do you treat him with disdain or do you treat him with respect?

As our side improves so will he.

He trained fully on Wednesday - has been with the main group for nearly 2 weeks now.

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For some silly reason, you people want to assassinate him, and it's just rubbish. You people. All of you, ALL of you!

I am glad I watch my game and not yours SB

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

You are right SB but having 4 kicked on you including several handballs over the top when you had to cover others, in a really high scoring game with no flooding, with the Bombers running riot thru the middle in the first half is a great effort as is three by Richo and even 3 by Brown, given that he kicked 10 on Waite.

Livo was a great bloke but how he was drafted at 4 is beyond me. He was undersized, poor reflexes, dreadful disposal. Nice bloke but wasted pick, and as for chances, didn't he play 40 or so games, wasn't he on the list for 5 years, how much time is enough. I wanted Livo to be a star, but he wasn't up to it, not his fault, bad drafting.

Setanta is bigger, handles the ball better, kicks better is miles faster and has great reflexes and is easily worth his place in the side. He's not a star, but we have been the worst side in the AFL for 6 years, that suggests maybe we are not packed with stars, in fact we have hardly any.

Here's a unique perspective, I like both Livo and Setanta. I'd have kept Livo and I sure as hell would be keeping Setanta.

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

Is that the same game you were watching when DP was developing and changing the culture of the players teaching them accoutability .

Ratts new game plan will rely on high possession footy - that means skills will be required - Setanta will struggle more


I will say nothing more on this subject just watch this space

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

SB, Setanta is certainly not as injury prone as Livo, but it doesn't really matter much anyway.
Livos wasn't given as much of a go because even in VFL level, his form was hardly impressive. He was good in certain games and average in others. As for when they were both played in the Blues side, I feel that Setanta showed a bit more and certainly offers more for the team