Excuse me for creating a new thread on this – but there is so much spin and BS being peddled by the media in regard to DP – I think I might just give you a few facts you can use when discussing this issue with others or ringing SEN….

I need to mention that I in no way condone VISY’s behaviour, but certain things need to be put into context:

•DP was not fined – VISY was. Yes, DP is the owner but he was not personally fined or convicted. The only people who personally were fined were: “Mr Pratt's right-hand man, former Visy chief executive Harry Debney has been fined $1.5 million and former general manager Rod Carroll has been fined $500,000.”

•The amount of $700 million banded around is not fact. The amount is a claim by the lawyer who is representing people suing VISY and AMCOR because of the price fixing. So a) it’s an inflated claim to get the most out of the suit and b) it is the claimed total for BOTH companies. Have a look at this:
“Lawyers at Maurice Blackburn Cashman said Mr Pratt's price-fixing admission boosted their chance of success in its action against Amcor. Amcor has counter-sued Mr Pratt's company, Visy.

Maurice Blackburn Cashman principal Rebecca Gilsenan said anyone who had bought products with corrugated cardboard packaging could have been caught in the price-fixing deal.

She said in many cases the businesses absorbed the higher cost of cardboard but in others the cost was passed on to consumers.

"It is important for anyone who bought boxes from either Amcor or Visy over the years to consider whether they have paid too much for boxes and to take action," Ms Gilsenan said.

She said before the price-fixing agreement there was a price war in the cardboard industry.

The main industries involved in the class action, which is expected to be heard late next year unless it settles out of court, are in the food and beverage market.

Companies include Coca Cola, Fosters, Lion Nathen and Nestle. “

So do you guys really think that those companies would have handed a slightly lower price to the consumers??? How much of the total cost of a product is made up by the cardboard packaging?? So VISY and AMCOR did not “rip off” the community – they “ripped off” companies who were playing hardball with their suppliers and had forced them into a price war.
The real amount VISY might have got out of this arnngeent over the 2-4 years it ran is probably more in the $70 M region....

•Pratt has claimed that it was actually AMCOR who instigating the scheme because they were bleeding….. Can not be proven, but funny how AMCOR are getting away with it in the media. Here is Pratt in The Australian:

“Mr Pratt, who is also president of Carlton AFL club, says that although Visy will admit to breaches of the law in relation to price-fixing and market-sharing, consumers were not hurt because average box prices fell in real terms between 2000 and 2004 and Visy also stole market share from Amcor during that period.

He accused Amcor of initiating the cartel arrangement and questioned the ACCC for providing immunity to Amcor as a reward for coming forward with the allegations. "If anybody had an incentive to fix prices it was Amcor, not Visy - if there was an instigator, it was Amcor, not Visy," Mr Pratt said.

"I take it very personally because I've been in this business for more than 50 years and everyone who knows me knows I'm a price-cutter and volume-chaser."

Visy has maintained that it agreed to the cartel deal as a ruse, and then went behind Amcor's back to steal market share from its only major competitor in Australia's box market.

"We captured more and more business by going around the back door," Mr Pratt said. “


• Pratt donated $ 14 million to charity last year.


Hope this helps to keep things in perspective and some facts to help you if you talk to all these idiots who are comparing Pratt to Mokbel etc.

But surely he's a bad man?

Great post mikkey!

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Green Shooter

Dick Pratt is THE MAN! Anyone anti Dick can just @#$%&! off.

Anyone who is anti Carlton, you are soooooo [REDACTED] in the coming years...

Graeme Samuel has a track record in rewarding spineless, snivelling stool pidgeons with immunity from prosecution in order to make himself look like a bigger man. I think one such spineless snivelling stool pidgeon was Stephen O'Rielly.

If Graeme Samuel wanted to make himself Australia's working man's hero why doesnt he walk into the office of his mates like Goldberger and offer them immunity so he can bring down the Petrol/Oil Cartel.

That would take real courage Samuel - lets see if you have the kahunas for that.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

No need to shout AGRO...we can all hear you.

My ears hurt

Mikkey wrote...."Pratt has claimed that it was actually AMCOR who instigating the scheme because they were bleeding…..

....He accused Amcor of initiating the cartel arrangement and questioned the ACCC for providing immunity to Amcor as a reward for coming forward with the allegations. "If anybody had an incentive to fix prices it was Amcor, not Visy - if there was an instigator, it was Amcor, not Visy," Mr Pratt said."

I am not legal expert but I think this case would have been thrown out of a court in the US because of entrapment laws. I don't think we have that type of defense in Aust but maybe we should.

Surely there is an incentive for Amcor to collude with ACCC if they think they can do harm to their main (only) rival.

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“Before you criticise someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticise them, you're a mile a way and you have their shoes."

Just engaging in a vigourous debate.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

The first time you've shouted in bloody years !!!.............

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

Immunity is offered as if it wasn't these cartels would never be discovered. The ACCC offer immiunity to any company who comes forwards, including the petrol companyies. Offering immunity is a powerful tool.

Remember, if you have a problem with the petrol companies, you have a problem with what Pratt did. People can't have it both ways.

I dont have a problem with that - I want to see if Samuels has the Kahuna's to do it.

He deals in spineless gutlessness to get his results but he doesnt have the guts to go after oil cartel.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Agro - How would you feel if a member of Talking Carlton worked for the ACCC. Do you have any idea how the ACCC operates...do you understand how it investigates cartels? Do you have any knowledge about the economics behind the decisions? Have you ever sat down with Graeme Samuel and discussed the Visy case with him? Have you thought about and researched how the ACCC has investigated and attempted to prosecute numerous petrol companies and is finalizing an inquiry into petrol pricing in Australia as we speak?

I DOUBT IT!

Sorry if this diverts from the wonderful post that started this thread. Dick Pratt has been used as an example. What makes me more disgusted is the other company, the one that also benefited from this "cartel" is getting away scott-free. No penalties. Whether they instigated or agreed - they partook. And for them to have gone running to the ACCC first means nothing. They stole just as much from consumers and producers as Visy is claimed to have done.

Sure their company directors or chairman aren't an AFL Club President. But irrespective, this issue is nothing to do with the AFL, Carlton etc.

Made myself listen to SEN today. Made for great radio with Brian Waldron asking KB - what has Pratt done to bring the game into disrepute? Response - Nothing. He wasn't even found guilty of a criminal charge. Response - Well Graeme lamented the fact he couldn't bring criminal charges... So?

The nett result is we have this big hullabaloo about nothing related to Football. And if the AFL moves against Pratt in any way, they risk tarnishing one of their favourite sons in Ron Evans who did more to profit from his role at the AFL Commission, and cost footy patrons more than Pratt allegedly cost consumers. Even if the $700million figure was real, that's $35 per person over 4 years. I know I get overcharged more than that from 4 games of AFL on the Spotless dominated catering companies.

To put this in focus - you pay $3.80 (may have gone up) for a bottle of coke at Telstra Dome. Staff pay $1.90 - you don't reckon that at $1.90 they still making a decent profit?

If the AFL puts heat on Pratt regarding price fixing, they will only shine a light on their Ron Evans negotiated, Ron Evans profitting history.

Sorry if I'm rambling. Too many drinks at lawn bowls tonight!

Yep - Amcor stole as well - agreed - but they're not going to get away 'scott' free. They 'll come out of this mess worse than Visy. You can blame Debney and Amcor all you like...but do you reckon this would have made the news if the shoe was on the other foot and Visy had got immunity from the ACCC? It wouldn't have made the news! Well - perhaps the Fin and the Australian....but no one would give a rats and most don't give a rats that Pratt has been fined millions and will be fined much more...it's not related to footy and it just proves to the general public what journo's either hate Carlton or either just don't get it! And in Fatprick Smith's case - BOTH

Agro. B.Comm - University of Melbourne.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Dr.Sherrin - ACCC

This price fixing was not done to "rip off" businesses that were buying their product but rather to get that side of the business back in the black. Prior to the price fixing both Visy and Amcor were running their cardboard side of the business at a loss. All the price fixing did was bring the price into line.

My father had a coin laundrette in Glen Iris over 30 years ago. Every year he and about half a dozen other coin laundrette operators would meet and set their prices for the next 12 months. The alternative to this would have been for them to undercut each other to the point where half of them go out of business. They were not doing it rip off anyone but rather to stay afloat ... no different to what Visy and Amcor were doing.

So does that make my dad of the same character of a Tony Mokbel ?

I just hope all this garbage about bringing the game into disrerpute makes Pratt's resolve even stronger. This is not about any disrepute to the game but rather jealousy at how one man has given a football club an enormous stimulus in such a short time.

Okay Mr. ACCC your "looking into" the oil cartel.


We look forward with great interest to the size of the fine that either of the following Shell/Coles, Woolworths/Caltex, Mobil, BP will pay.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Cartel's dirty box of tricks

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