I'm sure it will be revealed in the book. But from what Matty Allan wrote today, DP's 'open-door policy' would usually involve a player walking through that door and being told to stop whinging. So it would be hardly surprising if the players felt they had to take it higher.

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WADA medical director Dr Alan Vernec describes Essendon* FC drug case as biggest scandal in team sport the world of sport has seen. #WC2WB

#GUILTY

Buzz,

I too heard Denis' response to this question.

I guess you could take his answer either way. Depends upon the impression DP wanted to create and the impression the listener wanted to hear.

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A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.

I did say "if"
If they did and got no satisfaction then fair enough, but to not address any concerns with the coach as captain, then ask for a secret meeting to sack the coach on the presidents yacht, reflects poorly.

I wouldn't accept "he wouldn't have listened anyway" as a reason to bypass the coach. Thats just an excuse when you don't have the courage

Its all hypothetical until we know if Kouta as captain of the team did represent the players concerns to the coach.

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T E A M

From an article in the Age. DP also said on SEN yesterday he was never approached.

That Koutoufides confirmed senior players conspired to have the coach sacked is intriguing. Clubs fear the perception of the tail wagging the dog, but Koutoufides has outed himself and his teammates with tail-wagging. And it was not just those with whom he conspired to oust the coach that were outed, but an earlier group also. Koutoufides confirmed that Pagan had moved on senior players soon after his arrival at the club because they challenged his ways of doing his job.

It was in August last year that acting on the wishes of the playing group, Koutoufides and the senior players — Lance Whitnall, Matthew Lappin and Nick Stevens — met the Carlton hierarchy on then-president Graham Smorgon's boat and called for the coach to be sacked. It was to no avail. Pagan stayed and the players, Koutoufides writes, were "gutted".

Koutoufides will be condemned by some for timidity in not challenging Pagan directly when he was playing and treachery in going to the board. It might be an inglorious sight to witness a once vaunted dual-premiership coach humiliated in such a way but there is a clear sense of a comeuppance from the players in what Koutoufides says.

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

P155 weak cop out if that is the case. So you think 5 leaders couldn't approach DP and say. "Hi Den, can we have a chat about a few thing?"

That raises more questions about them than it does about DP.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

I agree.

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A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.

Thanks Cazz,

I thougth Denis didn't answer the question rather than saying that Kouta didn't approach him.

Also, the bit in The Age is Michael Gleeson's take on the situation. Until Kouta says that he didn't talk directly with Denis in the first instance, then I'll reserve judgement.

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A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.

I'm a little busy to do a search now but I'm certain that the leadership group met with Pagan at one point after a particularly humiliating loss. Can anyone remember when that occurred?

I'll write a more detailed post re my thoughts later; most will know that I was a fairly virulent anti-Paganite. However, this situation is interesting.

Cazzesman, it is not clear in the Age article that Pagan was never approached. It is convenient for him to claim that he wasn't. However, it's a case of "my word against his" and that's not definitive evidence.

I would like to hear from some other players re whether or not they approached Denis. Matthew Allan saying that there was no point is not enough evidence to me.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

And that should apply in reverse. I'm not saying that what Kouta writes is not true....just that it is from his viewpoint, and as such we should not take it all as gospel. How many times have you had a disagreement with someone and said "that's not how it happened" or "that's not what I said/meant"?

And I still don't have an issue with him writing a book, I just personally feel this sort of story is better left until there is a bit of time between the incidents and the telling of the tale.

This is doing damage to the brand at the time when things were looking up. It's another example of our selfish playing group of the late 90s / early 00s.

Kouta took more money out of this club than any other in our history and his contract was one of the reasons we were over the cap and crushed with AFL sanctions. His manager held us to ransom throughout the negotiations and the supporter outcry over potentially losing him resulted in the club accepting the deal. Now he writes a book to get even more money.

It's time the players took some of the blame in what happened to us. Most of them jumped ship like rats ... Campo, Allan, Beaumont, etc and in doing so left us with years of suffering.

This is precisely the reason why Kouta won't be remembered in the same breath as Voss and Hird who were both prepared to take less money for the good of their team.

And by the way, asking Matty Allan to comment on anything Calrton-related ... he can just take his scumbag of a manager and they can both get f#$ked!

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In WADA we trust

From the Herald/Sun

Koutoufides also revealed he had called a meeting with the Carlton board in 2006 to oust Pagan as coach.

Pagan said he knew of the meeting at the time, but tried to remain positive around his disgruntled players.

"I was aware of that and I just continued to control what I did," Pagan told radio SEN.

OR if you know Kouta socially perhaps you can ask him directly next time you see him and get back to us.

Obviously the old escape clause of....."I won't believe it until I see, hear and smell it from the horses mouth" is being used around here abit at the moment so maybe you can clear it up for everyone.

As you can read above DP said he knew about the attempt Coup but decided to ignore it.

I would surmise that if Kouta had written in his book that he and his delegation had made an approach to DP and he kicked them out of his office, it would have made for even better 'copy' for Jim Wilson. If it had happened we would have been told about in even big headlines.

Wouldn't it support Koutas overall case (if it happened) to tell everyone "DP wouldn't listen even when the leadership group went to him on mass"?

I could be wrong but that would seem a vital peice of the corroborative evidence in support of his complaint.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

That may just be beyond Mr. Allison's capabilities at the moment.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

The whole sorry tale is thankfully behind us.
Koutas approach demonstrates why he was never a real leader. Its a fact of life; some players have an ability to face adversity and lead the group in the right direction and others choose to take the soft option.
Unfortunately, Anthony has only confirmed what many of us thought about his leadership skills.
As for his book, he can bang it up his date.

As for Denis, none of this is anything new.
Good leaders inspire their people and sell the message to them so everyone is heading in the right direction.
Their players play for them and collective success instead of playing in spite of them.
Denis' divide and conquer approach was never going to work. A good man manager would have assessed the situation and handled it better.

Thankfully they're both involved in our past and not our future.

Lets look forward.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Why should Kouta have to comment about John Elliot in his book? He has every right to comment about someone who coached him, but he's never been on the board or been involved in the administration of the club. What an absurd suggestion.

Koutoufides is no longer at the club, so he can write what he wants about who he wants when he wants.

Tough cookies kids, get used to it, and in the imortal words of Denis Pagan, stop whingeing.

are you making light of his becoming quadriplegic?

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There's so much I could say...

Yes, let's.

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There's so much I could say...

I don't think anyone's questioned his right to do it - just his character and the wisdom of the timing considering this is the club we're constantly told (by those who never got beyond Hero Worship 101) the he would bleed blue for.

And many of us will continue to question the guy's character when he does things we disagree with.

If you disagree then "Tough cookies kids, get used to it, and in the imortal words of Denis Pagan, stop whingeing..."

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

I'll stay mis informed then. 2002 to 2007 is over. I'll just have a laugh at some of the buffooons who were at the place at this time. Assuming the profits of the sales of the book go to Kouta I wont be buying it.

Most of these auto footy bios are shallow crap anyway. The best footy book I have read is Inside League by Roy Masters.

I have never got into Rugby League ,but this book was an indepth account about all aspects of the game and the various personalities within it on and off the field.

Next we will have a book about Denis' time at Carlton and a chapter devoted to his captain who wasnt prepared to chase his opponent at times even when on a six figure salary.
I'll pass on that book as well BONDI

The article referencing pieces of Koutoufides' book provides a lot of hope which didn't exist before yesterday. There was always that lingering doubt in the back of my mind that we are really just that bad. Now it would appear there were very real reasons for us being so shit as opposed to us just being really crap footballers.

I for one am rapt the article was written, and now I feel even better about 2008.

Whoever wrote about working at a place where they were treatred like five year olds so they acted like five year olds was so on the money it's not funny. It was excellent to read as a counter to all this pious holier than thou bullshit.

When I read someone saw Ratten at Kouta's restaurant before Pagan got sacked, and he was dining with a number of young players, that was a the moment I knew I wanted Ratten as coach. That's what we need at Carlton.

Cazz,

Early in this thread I gave unqualified support to Denis for the manner in which he has handled himslef in response to this. I also indicated that I don't think that Kouta has done the right thing by revealing these details in his book.

You stated that Kouta bypassed Denis and went straight to the board.

Nothing in any of the quotes from either The Age of The Hun supports what you have stated.

As to my social contacts, I know you keep some things you hear around the club close to your chest, so do I. What Kouta says socially to me or those close to me stays in that environment.

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A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.