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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:47 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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I guess i missed something today :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:52 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Virgin Blue wrote:
As I said earlier, here is one player I have not heard one bad word about (until today). People who know him love the guy. I reckon he might have been a bit naive and is freaking out over all this.



There is no shortage of people who don't hold Koutoufides in high regard on TC, because they look not only at his playing record, but at his time with Carlton in totality. Those who do question him are not naive, but have had legitimate concerns about his motives and actions.

It's true that Koutoufides is entitled to write his memoirs and profit from them if possible. It's also true that he was a very talented player, and that he was better compensated than any other player in the competition for his promise of skills.

But Australian Rules football clubs are different entities than other commercial organisations. There are emotions and attitudes that revolve around a sense of 'team'. In the last decade, much of the team spirit was lost at Carlton, and Koutoufides was representative of that as much as Pagan, Collins and other individuals around the club at the time. Players developed a culture of greed, and combined with the weak and corrupt Elliott administration that caved into excessive demands, disaster ensued.

In reality, Koutoufides' revelations are neither important nor much of a shock. Player discontent was well known, so it's hardly surprising representations were made to the administration. I'd be more astonished if there was only one approach.

Some people have described Koutoufides as being brave for disclosing the meeting taking place. There is nothing courageous about his writings; they're more a case of being indiscreet and opportunistic for money.

What a surprise.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:02 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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$

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:13 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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(A)......Sell Newspapers.

(B)......Sell the Book.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:20 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Which player's dad was named Neville? Just on 3AW

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:31 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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I've got no problems what so ever with what Kouta wrote.

I do have a big problem with the timing though.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:39 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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GWS wrote:
I'm not too fussed about Kouta selling his story. Doesn't change my view of him much; great player, nice enough bloke but self interested at times.

Pagan was clearly out of favour with the players and nothing Kouta's written is exactly news. Can't see it really damaging the club in any way considering the amazing number of good news stories of the last 6 months or so.

BUT...

You wouldn't see Andrew McKay doing the same thing.

The player power of 1995 worked because we had a group that included Kernahan, Williams, Silvagni, Dean etc etc etc. They were players who realised that to be successful you had to give 100% all the time. Sad that they only got it together as a group that one year. In retrospect they really should have won at least one of 93 or 94.

Unfortunately the thing that stayed with the club after that year was not the level of professionalism of 1995 but a level of expectation within the player group that they should wield more power than was warranted. Guys like Campo, Lance, Hamill, Beaumont, Allan and co weren't strong willed professionals in the league of the 95 senior players and they certainly weren't great leaders.

Since that 1995 side the only player I've seen at the club who is what I'd consider a true professional (bar some of the new kids such as Murph and Gibbs) is Andrew McKay. Ratten was close but there were whispers about more than one dummy spit when Pagan turned up.

Now McKay may have disliked Pagan immensely but the beauty of Andrew McKay is that no-one here would know what he really felt because he was professional enough to realise that his job was to follow the coaches orders and do his best week in week out.

With Slasher it was always about the club and never about him.

It's a pity I can't say the same about Kouta.



Good points here.. I like your point about Andrew McKay.

It got me wondering who we can place our faith in for the future in defence (just like McKay) in terms of application, team player and desire and I am thinking Sentanta... who is made of the sterner stuff.

Can't wait to see Jackson been given a proper run - i think he has the right stuff too.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:40 pm 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
Posts: 9112
Location: Nth Fitzroy
I love Kouta. Gun player and loves carlton and did all he could for the club. The only problem people could possibly have with him was he accepted the large contracts offered to him. ooooooh big crime.

During his big contracts we never lost a player bar Hamill due to not having enough money in the cap. I personally use to buy a membership each year just to watch him play. He is hero to my mates and i. Everytime i have met him he comes across as a great bloke. My uncle is the boot studder down at CFC and has been for the last 18 years and had a lot to do with Kouta for all that time. My uncle assures me Kouta is one of the nicest bloke you could ever meet and bleeds navy blue.

The article today was probably bad timing. Should have waited a year or so i reckon.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:55 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 6439
Point 1 Pagan was a crap coach, an arsehole and from the article a touch insecure. You dont have to be liked to coach but it sure helps to have good people skills and a flexible mind. Pagan possessed none of those traits. Everyone on this website knew that and the people who gave him a four year extension after winning the f-cken wizard cup should hang their heads in shame

As for Kouta

I have and always will subscribe to the theory that he was overrated as a footballer. In his prime he was the best but comparing him to Big Nick and Jezza is almost chalk and cheese

As a captain he was crap

And now he tips the bucket on Pagan to add to the millions he made from the club.

Pardon me for being idealogical but if he disagreed with Pagan's tactics and people skills, why didnt this come out while Den was coach.
Everyone knew this was the case anyway.

Kouta is all about money and fame and dancing with the stars.

Personally I am glad Smorgon, Pagan and Kouta are gone.

As far as Kouta is concerned its all about himself and a cheap buck, not about the club.
Now lets flower move on.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:02 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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That was then; and now is big business.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:13 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Posts: 1600
bit harsh there keough.

watch the 99 prelim again and tell me Kouta isn't a legend.

Can you remember seeing big nick play? (i'm 6 years older than you and i can only barely remember his heyday).

it's always problematic comparing players from different eras anyway. (i'm still pissed off that Fitzy was on the bloody bench in the team of the century - dual premiership captain FFS!)

but pagan was certainly a rolled gold turd, and although Kouta was not a good skipper by any reasonable measure, he was a country mile ahead of his successor.

on that we all agree.

:)


Last edited by sideshow bob on Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:15 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Location: In the box.
Smorgon
Malouf
Pagan
Kouta .... and a few of his mates...


....all had to go for this club to go forward..



Were going forward...

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:27 pm 
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formerly Yazzamatazz
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The bios to come in the next few years should be very interesting....

A story i heard in regards to Pagan the hard ass forcing Ratts out of the game goes as follows:

Pagan had told Ratten and his teamates to get in the gym more and strengthen their bodys as this had been neglected of the years.

In Particular was Ratts troublesome shoulder.

When Ratts went down with his shoulder injury he was absolutley blasted by Pagan for not strengthening it through the gymwork Pagan wanted him to do.

That was the last straw for Ratts.

I guess we will have to wait for Ratts Bio to come out....

Might get myself a copy of Kouta, should be a fantastic read!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:35 pm 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
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So, Kouta happens to mentions in his book that it is a good thing that Pagan is gone from Carlton, backs it up with a few facts and says the future looks good.

Can't see why anyone on this forum would have an issue with that? I think it is perfect timing from the club point of view.

I think all those passing instant judgment should wait until they read the entire book un-sensationalised by some journalist.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:41 pm 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
Posts: 9112
Location: Nth Fitzroy
Bagging out club legends and looking for the negative in all things is so 2005.

Move with the times people or your posting careers will start to resemble pagans game plan.

Go Blues !


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:43 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 25449
Location: Bondi Beach
FFS I only got to page 8 and then I read Blue Arcadia's posts. No beg your pardons...that's just a pure assault and insult of one of the greats not only of this great club, but football in general.

I've gotta go out now, but I'll be back to give you a piece of my mind!

Stop slagging our greats.

Piss off Pagan fans...I've had enough of him and your types around this club.

Remember....there was a good reason (s) why

PAGAN WAS SACKED!!

and good reason why the footy community at large, let alone the Carlton faithful know why

KOUTA IS A LIVING LEGEND

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:43 pm 
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John James

Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:18 pm
Posts: 675
Location: Adelaide
Synbad wrote:
Smorgon
Malouf
Pagan
Kouta .... and a few of his mates...


....all had to go for this club to go forward..



Were going forward...


I think this is key.

Irrespective of anyone's views of the above, the club needed a fresh start with little or no ties to the past.

What we have now is a team and administration who are comepetent and are moving the club forward.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:03 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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FFS people.......this is life !

Well known sporting career.....retire......offer from a publisher to tell all; warts and all....X amount of money for same.....Jim Wilson....Carlton Supporter says to Kouta/Publisher.....do you want me to do a story a week before the Book release/Autograph signing Day to give your sales a boost?

Of course !.....and who could deny him that?.....he was No.43 for Carlton.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:09 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:27 pm
Posts: 1376
Location: Melbourne
I agree with everything the baggage of the past 5 years is being removed

Pagan
Collins
Malouf
Smorgan
Mitchell
Libba
Even Kouta retiring is indicative of the dark years that we have to leave behind

The only causalty i havnt been happy with has been JK would much preffered he had been able to stay with the Blues

But every other facet of Change is only leading to Blue Skys

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:28 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:20 pm
Posts: 1827
Aaahhhhhh The Horror The Horror.

Den Dens head has reappeared

My goodness I am thankful he is gone.


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