Kouta blasts Pagan (Denis' reply p4)

Synbad · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:51 pm

Virgin Blue wrote:

I don't know who Synbad is, but he seems to dislike Kouta which I think is not right given the guy did well as a player after he did his knee and tried valiantly to oust Pagan.

Alot of people do a knee when at work.. some people fall of a fork lift... other people are killed by a bullet in the army.. and other people lose a hand..for anything from $1000 dollars a year or less up....

But he gets paid to play football... did he do EVERYTHING in his power to extract the best football possible out of himself as possible??

Kouta got paid to play footy as best he can.. with or without knee injuries.. thats a by product of the game...

There are people who have done a knee then been delisted...

dannyboy · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:53 pm

my take on all this

is how @#$%&! good will we be playing to win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock:

Mrs Caz · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:55 pm

Can I remind posters (especially "new" posters to this site)....

Disagree with other's comments/ideas/viewpoints.....that's fine.

DO NOT ridicule them..."clueless" ignorant posters"...charming generalisations which do nothing to strengthen your own viewpoints.

Registrations could well be be cancelled if this continues.

Bunks · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:55 pm

Blue Vain wrote:

nytdog wrote:

IMHO, If the players have the right focus, then empowering players (just like empowering employees in business) is the best way to suceed. Football is a people business. The players are the product. If you don't give them power or a say in what happens then you have no hope of suceeding. 1995 was a great (and first real) example of the players leading themselves to a premiership. The coach needs to be make a decision on which players have the ability, but once the players are selected they should be given input into their own strengths, weaknesses, best positions, game plans, etc. And the best coaches are able to manage and faciliate that input and combine it with the coaches and MCs views. Obviously one man has to have final say (the coach), but the players need to feel that their views are considered. Pagan didn't consider anything but his own ego.

Yep.

Pretty much sums it up IMO.

Spot on nytdog - I have worked in an environment where we were treated like 5 year olds so we acted that way. Empower people and watch them shine!

Virgin Blue · **Joined:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:32 pm **Posts:** 3021

What's your point Synbad?

Jarusa · **Joined:** Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:00 am **Posts:** 23123

With all due respect Mrs Caz, Virgin sacrifices are sooooo 15th century.

Synbad · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:03 pm

Bunks wrote:

Blue Vain wrote:

nytdog wrote:

IMHO, If the players have the right focus, then empowering players (just like empowering employees in business) is the best way to suceed. Football is a people business. The players are the product. If you don't give them power or a say in what happens then you have no hope of suceeding. 1995 was a great (and first real) example of the players leading themselves to a premiership. The coach needs to be make a decision on which players have the ability, but once the players are selected they should be given input into their own strengths, weaknesses, best positions, game plans, etc. And the best coaches are able to manage and faciliate that input and combine it with the coaches and MCs views. Obviously one man has to have final say (the coach), but the players need to feel that their views are considered. Pagan didn't consider anything but his own ego.

Yep.

Pretty much sums it up IMO.

Spot on nytdog - I have worked in an environment where we were treated like 5 year olds so we acted that way. Empower people and watch them shine!

Yeah i agree with this to an extent.. BUT... youre going to empower Kouta/Lance/Murphy/Campo????

Theyre the guys who were senior on our list.....

You wouldnt be empowering them too much......

The problem was not just Denis.. but we had a massive hole on oyur list from list management failure and lack of a succesion plan.. that had the writting graffittied all over the walls of PP...

Virgin Blue · **Joined:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:32 pm **Posts:** 3021

If I was on a mill a year and did my knee, I would not bend much to the club's demands to cut my salary. It's a dog eat dog world. If the club were stupid enough in the first place to not have any injury clauses, then that's their problem. By all accounts Kouta took a couple of pay cuts, which is about as much as I would expect.

Synbad · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:07 pm

Virgin Blue wrote:

What's your point Synbad?

My point is for the club to be that shit for that amount of time alot of people must share in the blame.... the administration before Denis... Denis... the players.. and admin since..

The disaster was too massive to be placed fair and square on the shoulders of one man by Kouta....Kouta should examine his own performance as a senior leader and as a player in this era and search himself on what he did and what he could have done to better our situation...

After all still under Denis and after his failed coup attempt he did sign on for another contract....

Blue Arcadia · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:09 pm

Bunks wrote:

Blue Vain wrote:

nytdog wrote:

IMHO, If the players have the right focus, then empowering players (just like empowering employees in business) is the best way to suceed. Football is a people business. The players are the product. If you don't give them power or a say in what happens then you have no hope of suceeding. 1995 was a great (and first real) example of the players leading themselves to a premiership. The coach needs to be make a decision on which players have the ability, but once the players are selected they should be given input into their own strengths, weaknesses, best positions, game plans, etc. And the best coaches are able to manage and faciliate that input and combine it with the coaches and MCs views. Obviously one man has to have final say (the coach), but the players need to feel that their views are considered. Pagan didn't consider anything but his own ego.

Yep.

Pretty much sums it up IMO.

Spot on nytdog - I have worked in an environment where we were treated like 5 year olds so we acted that way. Empower people and watch them shine!

Agree...and I have also worked in an environment where people acted like 5 years olds and they were treated like 20 yr olds, in the hope they will mature and rise to the occassion....but they couldn't change their ways.

Synbad · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:10 pm

Virgin Blue wrote:

If I was on a mill a year and did my knee, I would not bend much to the club's demands to cut my salary. It's a dog eat dog world. If the club were stupid enough in the first place to not have any injury clauses, then that's their problem. By all accounts Kouta took a couple of pay cuts, which is about as much as I would expect.

He didnt take a pay cut.. he had his contract extended.. much like Hamill did....

And of course its dog eat dog..... and you wouldnt have done this or you wouldnt have done that... but because there are so many people around the club thinking dog eat dog as you put it.... (otherwise known as selfishness).. we have had our worst period in 130 years... HAPPY????

Blue Arcadia · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:12 pm

Bunks wrote:

Blue Vain wrote:

nytdog wrote:

IMHO, If the players have the right focus, then empowering players (just like empowering employees in business) is the best way to suceed. Football is a people business. The players are the product. If you don't give them power or a say in what happens then you have no hope of suceeding. 1995 was a great (and first real) example of the players leading themselves to a premiership. The coach needs to be make a decision on which players have the ability, but once the players are selected they should be given input into their own strengths, weaknesses, best positions, game plans, etc. And the best coaches are able to manage and faciliate that input and combine it with the coaches and MCs views. Obviously one man has to have final say (the coach), but the players need to feel that their views are considered. Pagan didn't consider anything but his own ego.

Yep.

Pretty much sums it up IMO.

Spot on nytdog - I have worked in an environment where we were treated like 5 year olds so we acted that way. Empower people and watch them shine!

Agree...and I have also worked in an environment where people acted like 5 years olds and they were treated like 20 yr olds, in the hope they will mature and rise to the occassion....but they couldn't change their ways.

SA Blue · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:13 pm

IMO, it really wouldn't have mattered who we had coaching since 2002, the club was going down regardless. To use one of my favourite clichÃ©'s, it would have been like shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic. By the Pagan had arrived, we had hit the iceberg.

The comments on game plan is interesting as this is always a contentious one. Game day tactically, I think Pagan often struggled, while the strategy of kicking long and contested footy is the right type of footy. 1-2 years ago everyone was on about modern / tempo footy and the new breeds of coaches like Roos and Craig. Both of those coaches are now under pressure to change their game plan and their sides on the slide. Don't be fooled by trends in footy, as Geelong as showed this year, the basics of footys are pretty simple. The question is do we you have the cattle to execute?

The best part of all this, is that it is behind us now and I believe we have a bright future.

camel · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:13 pm

Pagan knew of player revolt
http://carltonfc.com.au/Season2007/News ... wsId=52770

Quote:

FORMER Carlton coach Denis Pagan says revelations by star player Anthony Koutoufides that he was part of a group which lobbied to have him sacked were not new to him...

Mrs Caz · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:13 pm

Jarusa wrote:

With all due respect Mrs Caz, Virgin sacrifices are sooooo 15th century.

It's hard to find a good virgin nowadays.

Ockham's Razor · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:27 pm **Posts:** 1689

Mrs Caz wrote:

Jarusa wrote:

With all due respect Mrs Caz, Virgin sacrifices are sooooo 15th century.

It's hard to find a good virgin nowadays.

Mrs Caz, are you sure you didn't mean;

"It's good to find a hard virgin nowadays" :lol:

DownUnderChick · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:19 pm

Mrs Caz wrote:

Can I remind posters (especially "new" posters to this site)....

Disagree with other's comments/ideas/viewpoints.....that's fine.

DO NOT ridicule them..."clueless" ignorant posters"...charming generalisations which do nothing to strengthen your own viewpoints.

Registrations could well be be cancelled if this continues.

Nicely worded Mrs C.

I'm still waiting to read VB's apology.

Mrs Caz · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:19 pm

Don't put words in my mouth!!!!

tommi · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:25 pm

I'mrighthereMrsCee.............!

kindest regards tommi

TheBluesMuse · **Joined:** Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:27 pm **Posts:** 5270

Wojee wrote:

I'd heard the rumours but until this stuff came out I didn't know for certain that Kouta and the other senior players had problems with Pagan. Perhaps it could've waited until the club found it's feet a little stronger but I'm glad to have this stuff in the public domain finally. It has started a sort of healing process for me.

I knew it. I'm pretty good mates and work with Lappins cousin. I was a defender of Pagan for some time but I don't know if anyone noticed I kinda stopped posting on the subject because I knew too much.

Kouta blasts Pagan (Denis' reply p4)

Who is online