Kouta blasts Pagan (Denis' reply p4)

SA Blue · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:18 pm

blueboy8 wrote:

For Pagan he only came for the money :twisted:

. His heart was still at the kangaroos going to kanga functions and watching kanga games even when it had no benefit to Carlton. :twisted:

He brought in an Micky Martin just to help out a friend. :twisted:

Do you think Pagan hurts when we lost games. He was more worried about where to sit when watching Glen Archers 300 or last game. :twisted:

Did Pagan take any paycuts during our bad time. Did he quit when he new his time was up. Instead he gets his nice payout :twisted:

. The buck stops with the coach regarding performance just like players if they don't preform they get de-listed.

Dont tell me Pagan didn't know what he was getting he came to a club that was on the bottom of the ladder he tried to take short cuts to climb the ladder. I know we where fined draft concession but do you really think that even with Goddard and Wells would have made us a top eight team.

Pagan had no idea about Black Friday, the overthrowing of the board, the horrible financial state Carlton was in. So yes, I will tell you he didn't know what he was getting in for.

The rest of your post is just vitriol aimed at Pagan, with little basis in fact.

Virgin Blue · **Joined:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:32 pm **Posts:** 3021

Blue Arcadia wrote:

Virgin Blue wrote:

SA Blue wrote:

Virgin Blue wrote:

All you ignorant Kouta bashers, just sit back and watch our membership and sponsorship figures climb. There will be NO damage to the Carlton brand over this. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. Leadership is when you have the balls to speak up and Kouta has done this. He tried to get the stupid old coach sacked but the dumb arse board overruled him and flip flopped. The current board will look in light of Kouta's words, because they will be seen to be vindicated for sacking Pagan. Seriously, 30% of you have no clue whatsoever.

Simplistic nonsense.

Pagan inherited a wooden spoon side, the worst list in the comp, draft picks stripped, broke club that spent nothing on the footy department, but hey it is all Pagan's fault.

Did Pagan make mistakes? Absolutely and I thought by the end it was time for him to move on.

Just like family matters, a club's dirty laundry should be kept quiet publically.

Ordinarily I would agree with you, however I think you'll find most AFL watchers (and I am talking about supporters of the other 15 clubs + ignorant Carlton supporters) prior to today did not realise the extent to which Denis Pagan ruined our club, and I think the truth needed to come out. The truth should always come out.

Have you been away from planet earth during the last 10 years?
DP ruined Carlton???

Yep, he signed Kouta on mega bucks.
He drained the blues coffers.
He borrowed millions.
He breached the salary cap.
He got us the draft penalties and million dollar fine.
He created our depleted list.

Nobody is saying things weren't as they might have been when he arrived.

Nobody is saying it is all Pagan's fault.

But he deserves due criticism for his mistakes. He is well known now for treatuing his players like shit (did you read today's Herald Sun?), and he has force fed a young and inexperienced list a game plan that is really only compatible with a talented and experienced list.

Where's your argument again?????

exsing · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:21 pm

ryan2000 wrote:

I'm not here to Preach Kouta's name to those who don't think much of him,................

But.............

For me, i feel Kouta did infact give his all to this club! I constantly hear the younger kids talk him up.

Sure, he wasn't what you would consider an inspirational captain, but it's like what Setanta said..........whenever he needed a kick-to-kick for practise, Kouta would always be willing to oblige.

Kouta did win his 2nd B&F under Pagan and finished Runner Up to McKay another year.

Sure, Kouta probably could have done more...............but for that matter, so could Nick Stevens, So could Fevola, so could Lance, Lappin, Houlihan, and about 2 dozen other players that were on our list at the time. There was a Virus going around that club and it led to all involved at Carlton to drop their heads.

Pagan wasn't the only one to blame. Collo, Smorgan & Malouf should wear alot of it too. Collo's pathetic talk of our players being 'Z' grade would have to be the dumbest comment made by a president i have ever heard. Smorgan clearly loves the club but just didn't know how to run it and sometimes i wondered just what Molouf did most of the time.

The past 4 years have just been a disgrace and it would have to be hard to keep your chin up and give 100% when that shit is going on. Player, coach or board member,............whatever your roll, if your surounded by fire you'll probably get burnt!

Hence why Carlton seems such a better place now. No Smorgan, No Malouf, no Pagan..................no problems.

I thought Kouta was actually quite easy on Denis, the Herald Sun have perhaps blown it up a bit.

Deano, on the 'Averagde dissposals', i read it differently. I read it as Kouta discribing just how poor Denis's gameplan was that led to less players getting their hands on the ball and more just 'bombing it long' which is the exact same reason i have never been a fan of Denis..............cause that seemed to be his only trick in his very short book of coaching!
Just awful to watch and i honestly believe that in the short time Ratten has been in charge i have seen more of a game plan than i ever did under Denis. Bizare thought.

But i have no doubt in my mind that if Kouta was in this years PSD.......he would be picked up in a heartbeat.................but Pagan would STILL be out of a job!

You guys all know how much i love the great man and how much i hated Pagan so my opinions are always going to be biased anyway..............HOWEVER.............at the end of the day, Pagan/Malouf/Smorgan & Collo NOT being at this club means we are better off.

It is a much better place to be now and i personally will fight long and hard to try and keep it that way!

Well said.

hustla · **Joined:** Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:20 pm **Posts:** 1086

Kouta has ran his mouth off a couple of times and it doesn't make the club look good. If he's such a good clubman, why would he come out and say Carlton should lose? This article makes him sound like a soft****. "I didn't like his gameplan", "He wasn't fair", grow up and take it on the chin. You are a player who got paid a shitload for playing. His job was to play footy and leave the rest to the coach/administration. How many teams/clubs worldwide actually like their coach? The good players/teams take it on the chin and move on. The only thing that matters is winning, not whining.

Virgin Blue · **Joined:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:32 pm **Posts:** 3021

Hey Pheonix I wasn't having a go at you bro. My post was not concerned with the caller to the radio. Sorry I should have made this clear.
My post was pure and simple about telling you all that my girlfriend knows Beaumont and she told me he cannot stand Pagan and won't have anything to do with the club until the old stager is gone.

Warby · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:22 pm

Ockham's Razor wrote:

CK95 wrote:

So who was the mystery caller? Beaumont?

I only heard a snippet of the caller, but I think he said that he played 2 years under DP and 9 years in total.

Therefore the caller started around 1996 and ended around 2004.

Beaumont was with the Blues for 9 years - 1995 - 2003 - quite possibly him.

Not sure who else fits the bill, Glenn Manton?

The Pup was delisted at the end of 2004......1997-2004; as was Franchina....98-04....all of the other 9 departures at the end of 2004 like Harford and Beasy etc don't fit those criteria.

phoenix johnson · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:23 pm

After going through the Blueseums draft page and having look back through the past players section as well, I reckon I've narrowed it down to two.

Hulme and Franchina.

Leaning slightly more towards Franchina.

zoneman · **Joined:** Fri May 20, 2005 12:03 pm **Posts:** 765

womack wrote:

Synbad wrote:

Will Kouta be as brutally honest on whether he/ himself.. Campo..Fev... Lance etc did all they could for the members and the club???
Did they put in?
Could they all look themselves in the mirror and say "I did everything i could and gave everything i had for the Carlton football club"?

Could Denis???

He lost me after that insipid address pre our last game at PP. Players struggled to run through the banner after that. He was woeful.

Mick Martyn. The prosecution rests.

That was purely for the cameras. But it didn't look good though.

SparkyBlue · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:28 pm

Synbad wrote:

Look Kouta said what we all knew.. but as captain.. he had a res[onsibility as well.
As a paid employee he had a responsibility as well..
He had a responsibility to earn his dollars...

Alright everyone, now replace KOUTA with PAGAN, and CAPTAIN with COACH.

:lol:

...works both ways, eh?

Virgin Blue · **Joined:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:32 pm **Posts:** 3021

hustla wrote:

Kouta has ran his mouth off a couple of times and it doesn't make the club look good. .

It pretty much vindicates the current board's decision to get rid of Pagan. That is a WIN in my book.

hustla wrote:

If he's such a good clubman, why would he come out and say Carlton should lose?

Well the club felt the same way didn't they? Ratten felt the same way. And Caro basically applauded us for using the system. We wouldn't have got Judd and retained Pick 1 otherwise. So, you're wrong again.

hustla wrote:

"I didn't like his gameplan", "He wasn't fair", grow up and take it on the chin. You are a player who got paid a shitload for playing. His job was to play footy and leave the rest to the coach/administration. How many teams/clubs worldwide actually like their coach? The good players/teams take it on the chin and move on. The only thing that matters is winning, not whining.

This is a most ridiculous comment.

Are you suggesting that Kouta should never have brought to the board's attention the fact that the entire list hated their coach? You think it is bad leadership to do this? Sorry, what planet do you come from?

So, "the only thing that matters is winning, not whining". Hmm, but without the whining we stood no chance of winning, under that hack coach.

Here's a newsflash for you - the administration was a disgrace. That's why they got booted out. Remember that? So clearly Kouta was right to bring things to their attention, because they were incapable of running the place properly, and this is evidenced in them flip flopping and retaining Pagan.

Virgin Blue · **Joined:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:32 pm **Posts:** 3021

Seriously, what does it matter who called in? Pup or Frankie, it is totally irrelevant, because we all know 99% of the players hated Denis (the 1% who liked him was Fevola).

Virgin Blue · **Joined:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:32 pm **Posts:** 3021

I am a new poster here, only started posting a few days ago, but I have to say I am amazed at how many naive posters there are here.

People have the right to make money from any means.
People should speak up about what they believe in.

Kouta has done both things, and I do not think it will harm the club one bit. He might have lost some fans, but I applaud a man who is prepared to lose some support by putting his balls on the line.

That is real leadership.

You people who bag this man have no clue whatsoever.

He did his knee, took pay cuts, and yet still won a B&F and was no.1 in the AFL for clearances (because he re0invented his game).

He represented his players as Skipper by going to the then board to try and get this outdated, barking mad coach sacked. And he did it as a current player without bringing it to the media's attention.

And now he has decided to set the record straight, not just to make some cash but also to make all of us acknowledge the terrible damage Pagan did to our club through years of mistreating his players and making them play a game plan that was totally and utterly inappropriate given the players at the club at the time.

All of this is mutually exclusive to the draft penalties etc. Pagan had to coach a club that was on its knees, but he would have got better results had he had a game plan that was suitable to the players he had at his disposal.

I am thrilled Kouta has set the record straight, and I don't think our membership levels or sponsorship dollars will be affected one bit, quite simply because what Kouta has said vindicates the current board.

Seriously, I cannot believe how many naive people there are in this place.

The Duke · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:39 pm

phoenix johnson wrote:

After going through the Blueseums draft page and having look back through the past players section as well, I reckon I've narrowed it down to two.

Hulme and Franchina.

Leaning slightly more towards Franchina.

Those two were Pagan's worst de-listings. They still had plenty to offer IMO.

The Duke · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:41 pm

Virgin Blue wrote:

I am a new poster here, only started posting a few days ago, but I have to say I am amazed at how many naive posters there are here.

You people who bag this man have no clue whatsoever.

Seriously, I cannot believe how many naive people there are in this place.

I never knew Synbad had a son :wink:

.

Blue Arcadia · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:42 pm

Virgin Blue wrote:

Blue Arcadia wrote:

Virgin Blue wrote:

SA Blue wrote:

Virgin Blue wrote:

All you ignorant Kouta bashers, just sit back and watch our membership and sponsorship figures climb. There will be NO damage to the Carlton brand over this. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. Leadership is when you have the balls to speak up and Kouta has done this. He tried to get the stupid old coach sacked but the dumb arse board overruled him and flip flopped. The current board will look in light of Kouta's words, because they will be seen to be vindicated for sacking Pagan. Seriously, 30% of you have no clue whatsoever.

Simplistic nonsense.

Pagan inherited a wooden spoon side, the worst list in the comp, draft picks stripped, broke club that spent nothing on the footy department, but hey it is all Pagan's fault.

Did Pagan make mistakes? Absolutely and I thought by the end it was time for him to move on.

Just like family matters, a club's dirty laundry should be kept quiet publically.

Ordinarily I would agree with you, however I think you'll find most AFL watchers (and I am talking about supporters of the other 15 clubs + ignorant Carlton supporters) prior to today did not realise the extent to which Denis Pagan ruined our club, and I think the truth needed to come out. The truth should always come out.

Have you been away from planet earth during the last 10 years?
DP ruined Carlton???

Yep, he signed Kouta on mega bucks.
He drained the blues coffers.
He borrowed millions.
He breached the salary cap.
He got us the draft penalties and million dollar fine.
He created our depleted list.

Nobody is saying things weren't as they might have been when he arrived.

Nobody is saying it is all Pagan's fault.

But he deserves due criticism for his mistakes. He is well known now for treatuing his players like shit (did you read today's Herald Sun?), and he has force fed a young and inexperienced list a game plan that is really only compatible with a talented and experienced list.

Where's your argument again?????

Seriously VB...if you believe what you read in the Herald Sun then...i rest my case.

Show me where i said DP didn't make mistakes.
My criticism is towards Kouta and senior players for not acknowledging that they were part of the problem and didn't do all they could to fix it.
And more importantly to Kouta for going public with it.
He wants to leave the game with his name squeeky clean....but many can see thru his agenda.
He should think and then talk.
Just like a few weeks ago when he said Carlton should tank...from an recently retired captain!
And no...Pagan was not well known for treating his players like shit. Just ask most Kangas players....many of whom are legends of the game in their own right.

Virgin Blue · **Joined:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:32 pm **Posts:** 3021

I don't know who Synbad is, but he seems to dislike Kouta which I think is not right given the guy did well as a player after he did his knee and tried valiantly to oust Pagan.

camel · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:44 pm

Pagan's interview with KB being replayed on SEN now...

sideshow bob · **Joined:** Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:44 pm **Posts:** 1600

An old trick i learnt 25 years ago is to go through press releases with a big fat black texta and cross out all the adjectives.

After you've done that you get some idea of the truth.

Kouta's quotes taken in isolation aren't really that damning in my view.

Jim Wilson has spiced it up by adding 'slammed', 'archaic', 'attack', 'oust', 'frustrated', 'scathing attack', 'blasted', 'player revolt', 'gutted'

They are all Wilson's words, not Kouta's...

Kouta has spoken out, but he refers throughout to "Dennis", and if you just read his actual quotes he seems to be speaking with some degree of respect.

Wilson has leapt onto it and blown it up to get his name on the front page.

hustla · **Joined:** Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:20 pm **Posts:** 1086

Virgin Blue wrote:

I don't know who Synbad is, but he seems to dislike Kouta which I think is not right given the guy did well as a player after he did his knee and tried valiantly to oust Pagan.

We've all got our own opinions. Does it make you better than us? Get over it. Each is own.

Warby · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:48 pm

The Duke wrote:

phoenix johnson wrote:

After going through the Blueseums draft page and having look back through the past players section as well, I reckon I've narrowed it down to two.

Hulme and Franchina.

Leaning slightly more towards Franchina.

Those two were Pagan's worst de-listings. They still had plenty to offer IMO.

The Pup only played half of his last season (2004) due to a chronic groin injury; and was delisted.

Frankie had foot and hamstring problems throughout his career.

Kouta blasts Pagan (Denis' reply p4)

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