Not sure if this has been discussed previously, but with Carlton seemingly having well and truly turned the corner (not counting chickens yet, but quietly optimisitc), and discussion of whether WC should be stripped of draft picks over the Cousins situation, it begs the question of just how much of a punishment draft penalties are.

In retrospect, I think it was a blessing in disguise that at the time we were stripped of draft picks, we were about to fall apart onfield regardless (some would argue we already had). What it meant was that the draft penalties consigned us to 5 years of on-field oblivion, and while the effects off field were severe (and for another, less 'wealthy' cluib, might have proven near-fatal), it allowed us to do one thing of great benefit...stock up on a raft of top draft picks. It aslo proved to be the catalyst for the off-field sitatuation to become so dire, that the necessary shake-up eventually came, and those who needed to finilly said, "enough".

What this has enabled us to do is recover from the penalties a whole lot quicker than many of us thought it would take.

Contrast that to a situation with the same draft penalties, but to a middle of the ladder team (say 4-10). Such draft penalties could consign such a team to 10-12 years of struggle, that didn't quite push it to the bottom of the ladder (and thus not getting the benefits of picks 1 and 2, and priority picks), and thus not giving it the opportunity to rebuild.

Given that the penalties were handed down, I think the best thing about it for Carlton was the timing...as they say, if you're going to have a bad season (or 5), make it really bad, reap the benefits (top draft picks), and be in a position to rebuild with lots of talent...if we had been stronger on-field at the time, we may have had 15 years of mid-table irrelevance.

Just a thought.

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Mens sana in corpore sano.

Bring back the laurel wreath logo!!!

Unfortunately we did not do it soon enough. We wasted a year in 2003 - recruiting and trading for some 2nd graders - and finished 10th in 2004 - which meant we starting further back in the National Draft than we should have.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

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Regardless of what people may think, the onfield penalties handed down to us were a good thing. It was the kick in the pants that we had needed for so long.

However, as I've been telling opposition supporters over the past month, whether we win or we lose, in the end we always win. If you go right back to the penalties in 02, it's fairly accurate.

We lost Goddard, Wells, Powell and Pick 18. However, we picked up Fisher and Simpson. Two kids who have extremely bright futures at the club. Especially Simmo.

In 03 we picked up Walker and Stevens. The AFL didn't penalise us out of a priority pick or a PSD that year and it worked out for us.

I guess not much happened in 04.

05 we're right back in the draft and take Marc Murphy from Brisbane's grasp

06 the F/S laws work in our favour and we draft Gibbs.

And this year we have finished 2nd last, recruited Judd and kept our #1 draft pick.

So while people piss and moan and still have a grudge against the AFL, I prefer to look at it from the other side and like to think we have picked up some extremely good talent since those penalties.

If someone had come to me the Saturday after the penalties were handed down and said "in the next 5 years you are going to pick up Andrew Walker, Stevens, Murphy, Gibbs and Chris Judd" I wouldn't have believed them

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To really hurt a club the draft fine handed out should be you get sent to the end of the line. Last pick of each round for the next four years and for the fist two you are not allowed to trade your first 2 picks. That should summons a club to the just below middle of the table for ten years or so.

I reckon the AFL new what they were doing. They want us back at the top again. It almost backfired on them but Pratt rescued us as they new he would eventually.

I'll probably cop shit for this but i'd happily take Simpson & Fisher over Goddard & Wells anyday.

Thank you, come again..................

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"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

But if we could have snagged Goddard, Wells, Simpson and Fisher in that draft.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

I guess you could say that our penalties were a catalyst for the change in our fortunes, but on the other hand I see no reason why we couldn't have had this sort of management prior to that anyway. Yes yes, I know that trying to explain that to John Elliott would be easier said than done, and that in truth a kick in the arse like black friday was probably the only thing that would make the club recognise that it isn't invincible. But I feel that the types of decisions and development we're seeing now should've begun years ago, and that we probably would've been premiership powerhouses by this point had we done so.

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#GUILTY

The penalties hurt us, but we had already hurting ourselves. Trading for recycled players post-Pagan was only ever going to be a minor anomaly. The real pain started post the 1995 GF when we kept on topping up and the "we never rebuild at Caaaaaaaaaarlton" mantra.

We were always going to end up in the shitter ladderwise, with or without draft penalties. All they have done is prolong the pain.

Had we treated the draft with respect in the years 1995-2002 we should have had a couple more good kids around the place that would now be our senior players. The dearth of quality 150-200 game leaders post Ratten, Silvagni et al was what kept us uncompetitive.

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But would we have done so? There were no signs that it was going to happen.

And contrary to what others may think, we were in decline for most of Elliott's reign. Membership gradually fell, as did our bank balance. His 20 year reign included 2 Premierships (after 3 in the previous 4 years, and 6 in the previous 15 years). The first, '87, was part left over from the 79, 81 and 82 sides, and part big recruiting, for which Elliott must take credit.

But all in all, our demise started long before 2002, there was a graduate but clear decline that began in the early 90s (off-field), which eventually fed through to on-field. That is the natural progression, success and failure starts at the top, and feeds down.

Who know what would have happened had we not been belted, but there was no indication that we were going to change things and get with the modern game.

As it turned out, we were forced to...another blessing in disguise, perhaps.

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Mens sana in corpore sano.

Bring back the laurel wreath logo!!!

more off season dribble and I still can't believe that some still just don't get it.

Now get this through your heads

If the members had not voted off the board in 2002 we would have not gone through all this hardship over the past 5 years

It took 5 years some back yard deals and a lot of scare tactics to get the people who used to run the club back in charge and now that they are things are turning to normal.

Tell me if Judd doesn't perform are you going to linch the board for trading away picks 3 ,20 and Kennedy - because it isn't much different to what the old board used to do.

The 5 years of misery we just went through was caused by the members not the board or the previous board and not the AFL draft penalties

Oh and Pagan had a big hand in it as well

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

don't want to look back just yet...

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There's so much I could say...

Couldn't disagree with you more, Sydney.

I was actually at that EGM in 2002, and I was one of those members who voted out Elliott's regime.

I remember in the early 90s, at home with my family, who are all members, and have been for decades (my dad for 65 years). We were feeling some dispair even back then, thinking that if we didn't get rid of Elliott, he would eventually ruin the Club, in the same way that every other venture he was involved with was falling to pieces. It was obvious to many of us which way the Club was heading, even back then...early 90s.

Have a look at where we sat in terms of membership, finance, sponsorship etc when Elliott took over in 1983, and compare each of them to where they were in 2002. Sharp decline in all areas, not just against intestate teams, but as compared to Victorian teams. And that didn't happen overnight, it was a gradual process over 15-odd years.

That was the legacy of John Elliott.

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Mens sana in corpore sano.

Bring back the laurel wreath logo!!!

Mansfield, O'reilly, Davenport. McGuane McKernan ...... Nah not the same

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T E A M

I think you'll find that the people who you refer to as those who use to run the club, actully didn't want to put their names to the stinking mess that was the CFC.

For some reason you want to believe that without Smorgon and Pagan etc the boys we sent out would have been far better footballers, and the sponsorship money would have flowed like the Colorado River .

You're kidding yourself.

Pre 2000 was when the damage was done and we were a ghost town until someone else paid the price and suffered the pain and ridicule of 5 years in the pit.

I don't care to look back too often anymore because I'm happy with where we're at, but let's not forget where all those past champions and white knights were when we needed them the most.

i've often thought that a fairer punishment, instead of ripping the clubs guts out by not being allowed to get draft picks would've been to allow us to pick and trade normally and build a good team.

A points penalty, say docked 16 or 20 points for two years, would have ensured we didn't play finals, but we still would have been competetive and able to build a good list, avoiding the situation where we were crap for 5 years.

those two years cost us more than two bad years.

Sean Charles.

Skinny and Dean Rice are about the only success stories, with so many failures to counter the method.

Bloody hell, it stems right back to Glen Hawker...

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Just like Paul Keating said...


It was the recession we had to have.

What the...????

I think you'll find it was John Elliot who hired Pagan, not the members.

To use your own delightful turn of phrase..."get that through your head".

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Number 17 - come on down!

Yes I think it's what we Carlton fans don't normally want to talk about. That Essenscum have had better placings but have no elite talent to show for it. Losing is everything people, don't forget that

First of all as for being a Carlton Footballer - Judd has done nothing yet- I am sure I will be eating my words at that statement but lets wait and see

Elliott would not have accepted the penalties imposed by the AFL
Collins got stitched up big time and the AFL took the members for suckers everyone was caught up with the fact that we had just won our first wooden spoon and Elliott was to blame and didn't take into account that maybe just maybe Elliott issued the order to tank.

The AFL was scared of Elliott and used the Carlton supporters to get rid of him and did a wonderful job of it full credit to the Spew for sucking them in. He used the fact that we had just won the spoon and sensed the disunity and introduced salary cap penalties to further infuriate the members it worked a treat . But to Jack's credit he is back, he may not be the front man but you can bet your bottom dollar he is behind the scenes with Dick pulling the strings, And low and behold everything Carlton is good again .


Its about time some supporters pulled off the blinkers and stopped being Fonzies and admitted it - We were Wrong - Sorry Jack

And by the way Pagan was a desperate attempt to shut the supporters up if you weren't all screaming for blood and took note of what Five years later we all accept and admire - The Tank - Pagan would not have been hired but a stupid little token of a wooden spoon being waved at you from a few little morons over at Collingwood left you all baying for blood

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws