x forever to you all.....

Isn't this more enlightening than the tanking debate Mrs. Caz?

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"If everyone is moving forward together, then success takes care of itself" - Henry Ford

I'll be livid if we're in the same position in R20 2008 as we find ourselves now.

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TalkingCarlton Posting Rules

#1 - The first rule of Tanking is, you do not talk about Tanking.

#2 - The second rule of Tanking is, you DO NOT talk about Tanking.

#3 - If someone says win, goes on a goal kicking spree, taps the ball out for a goal, the Tanking is over.

#4 - Two guys to a contest, never three or more.

#5 - One loss at a time.

#6 - No shirts, no footy boots.

#7 - Games will go on as long as they have to, to ensure the opposition wins.

#8 - If this is your first year at the bottom of the ladder, you have to tank.

The reason I am comfortable with losing now is that I know we will not be in this position again for a long time, mark my words.

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"If everyone is moving forward together, then success takes care of itself" - Henry Ford

Donstuie -I dont think they are meaningless on 2 levels
1 I went with a 9 year old relative Dardew who was devastated that we lost again and is sick of losing after going for 5 years and continually losing - she doesnt accept now that it isnt about winning or losing - we all were cheering loudly at 20 minute mark when we hit the front - my head was saying the Cruise missile but was being overtaken by my heart saying I hate the Bummers and want to smash them and end their finals hopes
2 Seeing Jamison play on the dive bomber ,jackson being creative -bower being positive and not so reactive -seeing gibbs and murphy developing -seeing Setanta kick a goal from 50 -seeing Fisher kick 4 for the first time -seeing waitey being a bit more composed -seeing the boys adapting to a new game style

There are plenty of positives to take away from this game - but there is difficulty in explaining what went on to younger supporters - maybe you dont try to.

I know Agro Junior felt "very dirty" after the game.

But he has precious few "live" memories - and even his DVD copies of the 95 GF and 99PF are starting to wear out.

He is looking for a marked improvement in season 2008 and even he knows that this will happen come the start of the pre-season and the 2007 National Draft.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Agro Junior will be able to look back and say....."I remember when we were shit"................

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

Our game against North is the precise definition of meaningless. Bring on Round 22 where Carlton can finish off its rebuilding program in the top 3 picks.

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Mjonc signing off at 8888

..ahhh, the 300 Spartans analogy.. ..nice one..

..of course, the Spartans of that time would rather die than accept submission.. ..you see, IMHO the analogy is a little off.. ..the spartans could have submitted, and most likely have been better off under persian rule with little sacrifice.. ..much akin to tanking and scoring a PP.. ..but such a tactic flew in the face of all that the spartans stood for.. ..much like tanking flies in the face of what Carlton stands for.. ..or at least, what we used to stand for.. ..now we're just selling ourselves short when it's convenient.. ..i can imagine what the spartans would have thought of that..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

After a couple of weeks away I had sort of hoped that the personal stuff might have softened a bit.
We are, after all, showing some spirit on the field and that has to be a good thing, win or lose.

Doesn't it???

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Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

ahhhhhhhh yes...but the spartans wouldnt have gone to battle with a guy like Ackland in their ranks.
They used to cull the weak babies at birth... and only the elite would make it through training to become a Spartan.

You see the Spartans were only interested in the best.It was only the elite that made it through 'Agogi' to become a Spartan.
They were actually called Lacadaemones , hence the Lamda on their shields.The upside down V(Whichis he Greek letter for 'L'.
Not all Lacadaemones were Spartans but all Spartans were Lakadaemones.
Only the elite became Spartans.
Only the best!

So i think you dont understand their psyche.
They were only interested in the best

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we are also interested in the elite
bring on the picks

Surely clubs can still play against their old enemies in the eight and make it difficult for them despite the mathematical impossibility!

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[Sam Jacobs] looks like a 7' Lance Whitnall, and [Mitch Robinson] looks like a 4' Lance Whitnall
(The SEN team during the Carlton v Cats 2009 pre-season match)

..yeah yeah Synbad, i know a wee bit about history too.. ..i'm well aware of the principles behind the 'agogi'.. ..i also know that they were a bunch of pedarasts (sp?) as well.. ..so we're hopefully not gonna wanna draw too many parrallels between them and our mob i hope.. ..and that's my point.. ..the analogy is nice, especially with the timing of frank miller's 300 hitting the dvd shelves.. ..of course hopefully folks aren't using it as an accurate historical reference cos it's more than a little ways off but that's prolly best suited for a discussion elsewhere..

.. ..regardless, us and them are indeed only interested in the best this much is true.. ..the difference is that they'd have never submitted to sub-par performance in the hope of getting the best.. ..which apparently is our safest avenue to getting the best.. ..and that's why the analogy is a little off.. ..although as far as an entertaining movie goes, hell yeah 300 rawks..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

They didnt have the draft back then... and besides everybody knows that the Spartans were the Dorian descendants of Hercules.
With pedigree like that @#$%&! the draft!!!... everybody is a number 1 pick...

Yes agreed.. Frank Millers 300 is entertaining Hollywood (Loved the Ninja masked Immortals but Herodotus had them wearing tiaras.. and a veil that they used to cover their faces in the desert....i hate Holywood licence .

The probem with Ancient Sparta is that their attitude to excellence and inbreeding ended up weakening them.. as they began diminishing in numbers to a few hundred real Spartans and then the collapse of their dominance.

Stll pederatsy in the way some people would like to portray it is most likely wide of the mark if you understand Spartan law and minors.

However if they were talking about the Sacred Band of Thebans that might be an entirely different matter.(They ended up taking the Spartans to the cleaners)
I think there were a few single English Lords that wrote historical books about the Spartans that hypothesised on pederasty and the Spartans to make themselves feel alittle better,

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

..heh, well lets not hold pederastry against the spartans, such things were common in the ancient world.. ..we won't even tackle the romans hey..haha.. ..and well, the english lords did like writing anything and everything that would often put down those that came before them, in between bouts of incest..

...somehow Synbad we've both digressed.. ..regardless, back to meaningful vs meaningless games.. ..it's all subjective at the end of the day, and subjective by our own opinions to boot.. ..some of us will see wins as meaningful, others meaningless if it costs us the PP.. ..the development of the youngin's should always be viewed as meaningful cos it's progress, whether it costs us the PP or not.. ..likewise, whatever happens,, if one of our players finally knocks the socks out of some scummy opposition player that's sniped our own will always be seen as meaningful by me..

...the almighty PP.. ..for mine, i look at it this way.. ..if we can win, but we manufacture a way to lose (throw the game) then we obviously don't deserve the PP.. ..sure the AFL screwed us last year when they altered the rules to stipulate it requiring two seasons and didn't count the seasons we had just had.. ..but that's just our rotten luck in that regard.. ..the PP is a crappy system, as is the salary cap, the percentage of total player payments, and also the crappy way the season draw is made up without there being enough games to have a true home and away season.. ..let's face it, our game has little actual integrity in these matters and it's a bit of a farce.. ..but ppl saying we should take advantage of the system now cos the AFL screwed us years ago when they capped our knees during those year's drafts, well we did cheat the salary caps.. ..we should stop crying over those penalties which were harsh but we did cheat and that's that.. ..it's about time we got over it.. ..if we genuinely aren't good enough to win, then by all means bring on the PP>. ..but if we throw games.. ..we should truely be shamed of ourselves, and then we're neither better than the AFL, but rather complicit with it.. ..and we should snuggled up to Demi rather than curse him.. ..can't have it both ways..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

We should get over the penalties that you say we deserved because we broke the rules under the AFL system, then you say the AFL's system is crappy. I think you are the one who cant have it both ways.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

..there are many rules that i think are crappy, however i neither make those rules nor can i change them, instead we've agreed to abide by those rules.. ..hence, once you break them you've got what's coming.. ..simple.. ..yes i reckon alot of the AFL's system is crappy, but that's the system we play in.. ..and that's just the way it is.. ..break the rules, cop the penalties.. ..it's like being upset at getting a speeding fine.. ..you don't like it, but there's no point argueing it..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

No point in arguing about working the system to our best advantage then.


That is unless you have a pile of form fours at your disposal your not telling anybody about.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill