I reckon Rocket Eade would definitely do and have done a better job with us than Pagan.

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Enough of saying not the coach and no one could have done better than Pagan

He resides as the worst performed coach in the Blues illustrious Period
For a $700K per year coach i would expect better and maybe he is also marked more harshly due to how much he is being payed. If it was a laidly on $200K a year and we had the same results and sadly for Dennis i dont think our results would have been worse then i would accept it more. Perhaps though in that situation we would have had more money to spend on the Football department instead of $700K on the head coach.
Add to the issues including the issue with Mitch and no comunication with the reserves coach.
Having been dumped by the board only to be re-instated within 24 hours.

We have changed the list greatly over 5 years removed what Pagan believed to be players who had a gripe with the coach. Add to that we now have younger players who have also wanted to try there luck elsewhere and this trend could continue if Pagan sees out his last year in 2008

When ever Pagan is removed and i believe will be this year or end of this year it will be an enormous positive for the players and club.

With the addition of a dedicated reserves team in 2008 both Pagan and Mitch should depart and hopefully someone new from the game younger in ideas and game plan will take over.

Pagan has had his run regardless of if he believes he should see out his last year he would never be kept beyond 2008 anyway.

With such a young list and new changes in the club we need to now put in a coach who will evolve with the young list for the next 4-5 years so change needs to be done now not in another 15 months time.

PAGAN's time is finished.

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CFC TAC Squad everyone over 25 must be traded sounds like Loguns Run

..must say that i agree with alot of what you've said 4th..

....our list has been very poor over the last four years or so, and to take on as many 'project' type players and athlete's over straight up and down footballers was a very risky proposition in a time where i don't believe we could afford to take such risks.. ..out of the project type's i do like the look of both Harts and mister Kennedy, and with both i dig how we need extra time for them to develope, especially with the injuries they've both suffered over the last couple of years, and often being thrown about in the seniors side in a poorly coached club without actual developement coaches.. ..getting two of these next year, better facilities and a true vfl side and football academy will work wonders for us..

..as for the others you've mentioned, we all love Walks.. ..his debut against the weagles at PP has made him an instant fav, as well as doing respect to the number he's been given, and just his commitment to the club is so great to see.. ..he's definately for me the stand out athlete that's making it in AFL.. ..Murph and Gibbs are yer footballers, and we picked them up as #1's fer obvious reasons..

..not so sure on Bower, i see potential with Russel, but for me he so far seems another Houla's type.. ..and i rate Houla higher, he needs to be played permanently on the wing, he's one of our better link men.. ..Grigg i haven't seen much of, aside from the mins in seniors..


..so, we look at risk vs reward players immediately after their selections.. ..after Walker, the Dee's pick up Sylvia and McClean.. ..definately McClean for me is a player every club can use, a real in and under strong presence, and still so young,, only going to be better.. ..if we had our pick would we have actually chosen him..?.. ..later on with our other draftee's though yeah ours are coming along a little more slowly.. ..again, poor club we are plus little senior player leadership/protection/responsibility/accountability on field so our youngin's have no wing to be taken under which effects their play..

....odd, to take so many risky picks in the drafts though with where our club was at.. ..makes players we have picked up like Thorton, Carrots, Bentick and Betts and even our Irish boys which we have thru less conventional means to be all the more special.. ..we're getting such a good return out of these players than some of our early draft picks..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

For once I agree with Synbad.

Pagan needs to fall on his sword. The bloke is ultimately in charge of our team.

There is no game plan becuase no one is allowed to stay in one position. Our team is disjointed. One minute you have Houla in the forward line, then the back line and now named in the @#$%&! centre.

Pick a side and stick with it for the remainder of the season. Leave the kids in the same @#$%&! position for the remainder of the season. Let them get some time to gel/team together with their team mates. Let them learn to work together.

Put Kennedy at CHF and tell him we have faith in him in him.
Stick Bryce on a HFF and let him play his natural game - how many kids need to be apprenticed in the back pocket FFS?
Put Bower on a half back flank and tell him not to drop his head.
Let Russel play on the wing and tell the kid to run.
Give Waite CHB and leave him there - this kid can play anywhere but needs some time to make a position his own. When the team is working cohesively then release him elsewhere like Kouta at his peak.
Put Walker on the HBF and let him provide the rebound.
Setanta at FB with TBird along side to provide dependable support.

Put Scotland in the centre and tell him to win the football and stop being a seagull (aka Campo MKII).

Give em a chance Dennis - Stop @#$%&! with their minds.

just on Waite, i know he is good in the forward line, but for me, he kills it at CHB and is exactly what we need in our defence.

Bower Waite Walker
Thorton Setanta Houlihan

**Stating to really like Houlihan in the role he has been playing lately i.e Davey Stopper but also can be damaging going the other way.

but most importantly, leave them there, week in week out, and let them develop.

We suddenly have a spine

Fevola
Kennedy
Muprhy
Waite
Setanta

at the moment, we have no settled side and that is part of oue problem

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

either that or we didnt have much choice - of the players you listed, 3 were rookie picks and one was through the PSD. I'd only have 2 of them in the team atm (thornton/carazzo) - the other 2 would need to go back to VFL and do more.

Heres a little exercise for people - of our draftees (from the main draft), how many genuine footballers have we picked up out of the total number of players in the hughes era.

I might have missed a couple but the only ones I could come up with were gibbs, murphy, and ummm.... anderson. In the 4 or 5 drafts that hughes has presided over I think thats it

Sort of not really surprising that those 3 have played ok in the seniors whereas the others have struggled to make an impact/contribution (walker was pre-hughes I think).

..4th, that's my whole point.. ..out of Thornton, Bentick, Carrots and Betts, i'd suggest that all 4 of them are footballers, and none of them were taken with the main draft.. ..why go for so many athletes in the main draft and hope rookies and PSD's come good..?.. ..and for the less risky main draft, we go for project types.. ..kinda seems backwards..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

Melvey,

How can the players be responsible for :

Pagan's lack of tactical nous ?

Pagan's inability to develop talent ?

First young players get little game time if selected to play, then they get dragged and sin binned for the rest of the game for making a mistake. How are the young players to develop any confidence ? Secondly, just about every new player is played entirely in defense as part of development, rather than a variety of positions. I think Pagan has just about killed any flair Walker had.

Pagan's inability to proactively change game plans ? I mean is there ever a plan B ?

Pagan's inability to build a strong leadership group ?

Pagan's unwillingness to use the interchange bench ? Just about killed Stevens as top flight mid fielder.

I won't even go into all the childish nonesense like not speaking to Mitchell or his lack of media skills. Is he 5 years old ? I expect more professionalism from a person being paid 700 k pa.

Can't wait for the MC to say - Dennis, you are fired!

Agree totally

Eade would have played players to their strengths and come up with a game plan which suited the team, not forced them to play a game most of them aren't suited to.

I have had whispered in my ear that if we get mauled by the Bears on Sunday, then Pagan will be gone on Monday.

Mondays could now be the Fridays of 2006!

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

melvey, spider etc

Can I ask you a question ?

Why is it that you are always around when something big at Carlton is brewing ? last time you were here was election time and then you disappeared..... Now back again.

Hmmmm strange. Strange to that you always agree with the opposite than the rest of us...... Troll I reckon....

bugger - no chance of pagan going then. We are playing the lions

I disagree totally.

The Bulldogs list wasn't considered that good before Eade arrived. It was like he rejuvinated the entire playing group. Hell, look at how good of a player the smiling assasin is now!

The Bulldogs were getting beaten quite comfortably during the Rhode years.....................................within a year - A SINGLE SEASON - Eade almost took the club to the finals............that very same list that was considered poor under Rhode.

I always saw the Bulldogs as a list that Wasn't living up to it's full potential..........whatever the reason may be.

Clearly, that list IS living up to it's full potential now, and i see Eade as a major player in that. Hell, not only has Eade restored the teams faith in themselves & each other but even the Supporters are out in full force.
The difference is amazing.

I see a similar situation for Carlton. ESPECIALLY in certain players like Walker, Waite & Bower.

3 VERY exciting and talented athletes that have got some trouble with general football skills.

Walker - under Pagan has been good, but we always seem to believe he has an extra gear to get into yet but isn't quite there.
Waite - does amazing things but we all know of his consistancy & kicking lets him down.
Bower - I'm a full on believer in this kid becoming a full-on superstar. Watched him in the bullants and he just does wonderfull stuff....moreso around the ground as opposed to his CHB AA posistion.

I believe that these kids (and others) will flourish and take that extra step under a new coach. Similar with what happend at the Bulldogs.

Seriously, how much change to the list at the Bulldogs did Eade make in his first season. The only real assistance was Griffen as the major addition. And when you think that they lost one of the senior (and possibly best) players in Darcey for the entire season, the Griffen addition pretty much cancels itself out doesn't it?

Anyway..............that's my take, and i'll argue it till the cows come home because I BELIEVE IN THESE PLAYERS! I just believe we are yet to see their best. And for some reason, we are not getting that out of Pagan.

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"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

Ryan, I feel exactly the same way. I believe in these players also. We need a few more good ones slotted in but otherwise we have a good platform.

Bower should be played in every game for the rest of the year. I reckon he could be anything.

Bloody hell, only one piece of the puzzle left. Pagan given the flick. I hope they can see this....................

I cannot stand another year of watching him tear our team apart.

You are exactly right a new coach with new ideas, and we will see the difference.

Anyone who saw the Dogs and Power games got an example of what our list can do when it clicks. The problem is, it clicks about 20% of the time and the remainder of games more than likely result severe capitulations. It all points to a team that has real talent but no grasp on how to use it, they are disorganised and currently incapable of doing anything consistantly other than concede goals.

So many of our players have had outstanding personal seasons: Simmo, Carrots, Carlos, Hoops, Fish, Waite - all excellent, and Murph and Gibbs are doing far more than can be expected of such young blokes. All have stood up to a level most of us wouldn't have expected but the team is still incapable of putting together a four quarter effort and playing teams on our terms. It all points to the team things - blokes not pulling in the same direction, blokes unable to predict what their teamates will do intuitively and blokes not trusting their teamates, it's U-turns and kicks to positions of disadvantage. Everytime we step out there it looks like we're playing ourselves as much as we're playing the opposition, then we'll get a good bounce or a spot of individual brilliance and it all comes together for a 10min burst and we look unstoppable, only for it to fade as quickly as it came.

Pagan's message may be a good one, but it's lost on the group because it's the team things letting us down. Look at how poorly the Saints played at the start of the year because they were struggling with the game plan. All that talent didn't evaporate, it just wasn't coming together as a team, but now it is and after 15 weeks the players are adjusting to Lyon's game. Our players have been struggling with Pagan's plan for the best part of 3 seasons, and we can't keep turning over the group because they don't get the message.

There is more than enough talent on our list to support not only wins but a consistant effort from the team. People claiming no one would have done better with our list are grossly underestimating our playing stocks and grossly overestimating the work Pagan has done with the team. Our list lacks senior leaders and it affects the way the younger players play, but the younger players don't have enough confidence to take the game on and make themselves leaders, it all boils down to a complete lack of confidence and lack of direction. A new coach will change this.

It's easy to get frustrated because the jungle drums aren't beating as loud as most of us would like them to be, but you have to have faith that the new administration is handling the situation in a manner that is private and professional. Pagan needs to go, Mitchell needs to go, the bullants need to go, and tired, slack and unproffessional players need to go. What we have to work with is definately good enough, but in the current hands it's proving to be woefully inadequate, so a new set of hands needs to be employed.

Ryan...well said. It amazes me how some still say let Pagan see out the year since a coaching change is on the cards at season's end. Well if this is true then that means the club has already decided he is no longer required so why is he still there?? Why? Unless he is going to be around next year.

Otherwise if not then he must be removed immediately and anyone put in as caretaker. At least the supporters and players can breathe a sigh of relief for the rest of this season. It's gonna be difficult enough watching us get belted over the next 7 weeks but it will be a whole lot easier knowing FOR SURE that Pagan is already gone.

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" Koutoufides has taken the last quarter by the scruff of the neck..." Commentary Drew Morphett Last Qtr '99 Prelim. Pure Gold.

Thanks for the memories Kouta. You are and always will be a True Blue Carlton Legend. #43.

My question to Mr.Wayne Carey who is looking after his mate is:
If we have the worst list in the AFL, then why is there 2 teams behind us on the ladder. Why did we beat Richmond, Essendon*, Western Bulldogs and Port Adelaide?
I also ask Mr.Carey. You say no one could've done a better job than Pagan with this list. Well I ask could anyone have done a worse job? Also getting paid $700K p.a to do it.

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WE ARE CARLTON, WE ARE ARROGANT AND WE LOVE IT!

Does anyone know if we had a extraordinary board meeting last night ? Given I can't find any mention of it in here, I presume this isn't the case. An email has come to me saying we had one, and guess who was the primary agenda item...Think it must be crap....

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...I'll ride the wave, where it takes me...

Just heard on SEN (rumor only) that Gary Ayres is heading to MC Labour park next week for an interview

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Let the Fookin Hittin Begin