When we lose we usually hear- "flower Campo the soft prick!" or we hear "Bloody Houla!!! He Can't kick! Can't mark! Can't tackle! WEEEEEAK!!" If not that then it's "flower midfielders! How hard is it too run next your man when the oppostion get the ball!!"

Usually, even when there misworded as bad they are up there, i agree with it because it's true!

But when we hear garbage like this- "Telling a team to tackle hard and chase hard, f%^& this Dennis is a genious. I'm sure all clubs once they get hold of these masterstroke instructions will be better for it." I get pretty angry.

It's almost as if we got sick of bagging the true culprits of our loss so we move strait onto the only person who we haven't bagged yet and that's Pagan. The same man who has completley changed our fortunes from two years ago when not only were we losing but we believed that it would take us atleast 5 years to be in premiership contention again.

Then, just a year later we won 10 games and we had a good bunch of youngsters, a bunch of rejuvinated veterans and we had a team who played with heart, not a team of 1st round draft picks but a REAL team who battled, the type of team who you knew would give every match a red hot crack. A team you'd be proud to support.

A pre-season later we had picked up a good bunch of youngsters. A couple players for the future, a couple ready made players and we were using our draft picks smart, looking to the future. We got Raso because next year he'd be top 20 and instead of picking up some old ruckman with dodgy knees we got Eddie Betts, who would add an extra dimension to any forward line.

After the exciting pre-season which had as much buzz as any pre-season for any club ever we won the Wizard Cup, actually we didn't just win it, we dominated it!

Who was the man that orcherstraited all of this? Dennis Pagan. The same man who 10 weeks later, we've been giving a verbal hiding. And why are we doing this? Because we've lost a couple matches. I'll be fair we've lost those match pretty bad but how can you possibly call for the head of a man who completley turned our fortunes around?

Absolute bullshit. For all i care go back to the usual bagging. At least they deserve it. Pagan doesn't.

It's not his fault our players don't follow his instructions.

And if they did follow his instructions imagine the team we could be. We put ourselves under pressure by not following his instructions. What happens when we put ourselves under pressure? We shank our kicks... What happens when we shank our kicks? We have turn overs. And what happens when we turn over the ball? The opposition kick goals!

It's as simple as that. The PLAYERS (that's not Pagan btw) don't follow instructions and that as why we are losing.

As much as you guys crucifty our skills, we do have the skills to win matches. We have the rebounders to win matches and we have the goal kickers to win matches. Now we've got to follow instructions and get some confidence back.

I have full faith in our playing group to put it together, follow intructions and win games.

It's all just a matter of time and i can't wait for that time to arrive, but please don't loose faith in the mighty Bluebaggers and Pagan!

That is pure @#$%&! poetry!

Couldn't have put it better myself!

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Well said, Chris.

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

Everyone has to be accountable and whilst I'm behind Pagan I'll have no problem questioning him if there comes a time when I don't believe he's doing his job well. At the moment I'm more than happy with the long term direction of the club and fully aware of the limitations placed on Denis and the match committee due to the legacy of years of poor recruiting decisions, penalties, infrastructure etc etc etc.

That said, one of the great things about Denis Pagan (and Collo and the Board so far) is that whatever criticism is heaped upon him from whatever direction I get a strong sense that in the wash up, after all is said and done at the end of the day, the man really couldn't give a flying @#$%&!.

Denis isn't an untouchable god. If we're not playing well then his performance deserves to be scrutinised as well.

It just so happens that most of us agree its not his fault.

Did we need another thread for this?

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

Well yeah we did, because from what i've read all the other threads about Dennis are over ran with bullshit like the quote i have at the start of my post.

Angling for a job as a mod Brad...?

Well the last one had one person say something bad about Denis and everyone else argue.

Anyway, I'm sure' Denis will provide a speech this to inspire the boys so well they'll be prepared to walk through brick walls or adelaide to gain victory

_________________
"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

I don't think we have come that far at all under Pagan.

Forget about the Wizard Cup it is a bull shit competition that is over inflating how good we are in peoples minds.

When Pagan took over we had the shittest list in the comp.

This year we have the shittest list in the comp.

Pagan for some reason seems untouchable ? I don't get this ? if there is a reason to criticise him he should cop it.

The same rift amongst players etc - that was there at the beginning of Pagans reign is rearing its head again. Is he slowly losing control ?

I dunno ?

At the end of it all i just don't see why Pagan is invincible/untouchable ??

I think we are heading in the right direction but we are a LONG way off.

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*(grow - fun - gah)

Yeah but whatabout your whataboutism.

No, at the moment it doesn't feel like we've come a long way does it?

Give Denis 6 or 7 missing draft picks and an inherited core of 24-27yo players and we'll see where we're at. Carlton supporters rightly love their players (some of them ) but that blinds them to the fact that structurally our list is a mess. It's not just that we miss the footballing talent of those missing 24-27yos; it's that they're the guys who form the core of a club's culture. The gap between a 32yo married with kids Koutoufides and an 18yo draftee is enormous.

I'll judge Denis properly when he's got a half-decent list to work with. His record buys him more time than those who've been shown not to be up to it (read Rhode, Schwab, Frawley etc) but until then I'm content to focus on the things that he can control and considering the constraints he's been under I think he's doing a pretty decent job so far.

Just one question for anyone really wondering about how bad our list situation is:

Take away 6-7 of the best young players and most of the 24-27yo players on the list of any other club in the AFL and how do you reckon they'd go?

If I was a mod I'd have merged it with the thread before it

_________________
"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

When Dennis plays Deluca in a back pocket(last week), Whitnall on the backline(happening too often), Stevens in the goal square(geelong last yr), Fevola at full back(saints last yr) or any other decision(there are too many) that demonstrates that we don't have the intention of winning then I think Dennis has to take the blame!

Good at developing... but I don't know hwo good he is on match-day. Although I've always been one to question the role of the coach on match day. I see it as somewhat redundant.

Ryan Crowley has just kicked 3 goals (and maybe more!) in a winning team (thankyou, Bossie ) for Freo. Crowley was a lateish pick in the 2003 draft, was cut at the end of last year and rookied, then was promoted.

The 2003 draft was a shocker, and I blame Pagan for that. Even if Crowley, for example, never makes it.. he's already done more at senior level than Bannister, the worlds best CHF, ever has.

We applauded a lot during that trade session.... but really.. a lot of short sighted decisions where made then.

Lets see:

McKernan Swap -> a beauty... good in every way

Beaumont Swap -> got Clarke... good enough for what we had

4th Round pick for Johnson/Harford -> probably a bad one. Not much need for Johnson while we have Clarke sewn up.... didn't need Harford, and only needed one of Clarke/Johnson.. both of whom will prob be cut now. Could have swapped Beaumont directly for Johnson... probably.

3rd Round pick for Scotland -> break even at this point. Scotland was good last year, but might have run his race. I suspect we'll regret this one ultimately.

Murphy for McGrath -> a good one. Murphy sucks, and McGrath's been ok, though probably has a limited long-term future here.

Allan for a pick -> that one was fine, I suppose. Allan had to go.

Now the draft:
Andrew Walker - that was good. resisted the urge to swap the pick, and got a good long-term prospect.

Ricky Mott - an ok punt. Needed a back up ruck, but worth a pick. Ultimately, just a bad pick.. not bad thinking.

DeLuca - again, good thinking, and as yet, a so-so pick. I'd pick DeLuca again.

Bannister and Bowyer - Unnecessary waste of a couple of late picks

Kenna - ok thinking again, but a poor choice.

AND Stevens, of course... good

Ultimately, the point I'm making is, rather than think "well we have no picks, lets just waste our late ones" they should have savoured them and taken a swathe of kids to develop. Even if the turn out crap... its worth the punt to get talent on the list... ESPECIALLY in a team thats had a bit of luck with late picks of late.

We should have:

Swapped
McKernan for Morrell and Teague
Murphy for McGrath
Beaumont for Clarke/Johnson
Allan for a fourth rounder

That gets us a bit of hardness and professionalism

And kept all the other picks and picked kids/rookies.

Then we might see some kids coming through now, rather than rotate poor players through the team and hope it makes a difference.

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Love Cricket? Love me

Do you know who makes me angry Danny G, the people who signed the man up for another 3 years when there was still a year on his contract.
With all these beltings we've copped since his arrival all Pagan has brought to Carlton is shame.

They picked up Matt Ball with pick 54 and I don't think he has seen senior action at all this year.

Story goes that they wouldn't give us Johnson unless we took Harford.
Still reckon we have won this deal by the length of the straight.

I mean c'mon, I'm sure Matt Ball is a poor MC.

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

Just because they picked Matthew Ball, doesn't mean we would have.

I wouldnt' have taken either Johnson or Harford now, in hindsight.

I dont' see how we won by the length of the straight when neither will be on the list in 2006.

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Love Cricket? Love me

I don't think we would have.
That years draft, apart from Andrew Walker, was all about drafting recycled players to help get the team playing competitively.

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

Big Danny If Pagan was a Manager of a buisness and he was blaming all his workers for the reason why the company was not making profits you would start to ask questions wouldn't you. Problem is Big Danny that premiership coaches are hard to find and as a matter of fact out of the 16 teams only five have coached a flag. So when you finish last and one happens to come along you go after him dont worry about the expense , dont take a good look you just get him. Now if you were to ask the question on this site if you would want Choco williams coaching the side you would here screaming from the rafters no one would want him . But at the same time Pagan had a side not to different to Choco and managed to fall in and win a couple of flags against two sides that should not have been there in the first place and if they had played the sides that they should have Pagans flag total would be none. See it was the players Pagan had that made Pagan the man he is today and give him players that are not of the class of Carey , Archer young mick Martyn stevens an in form Mckernan he is found wanting. so every week he tells his side to go out and play a particular game plan because it worked 10 years ago and all the supporters just go along with it because he hasn't got the list and we need to bottom out to give Pagan the players that he needs so he can become a good coach again

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

to play competitively for 1 season, just to finish last the year after?

To me, that says "bloody awful decision".

I'd rather have played David Clarke for 22 games last year, win somewhat fewer games, and have a look at a few more kids, frankly, than be competitive for 1 season and now be threadbare for talent.

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Love Cricket? Love me

While the Wizard Cup was great, that was going to happen sooner or later.
Those recycled players were playing for their careers in that first year.
They had to perform.
If they didn't they would have been given the arse. (see Kenna and Mott)

Sellers Maclure stated a few weeks ago that this drop in form from all of the recycled players was bound to happen sooner or later.

_________________
Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24