Hughes probably had the misguided expectation that many of the kids he chose would get some ground time at the level he chose them to play.

He probably expected they would have the opportunity to develop the skills that he believes they possess.

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This might sound extreme in the context of alleged sexual assault, drunken violence and a drug trafficking charge...

this will be the key to our change in fortunes, we have more than 1 issue at the club and we have many area's that need to be addressed and fixed.

"Probably" nothing but conjecture

So what does this mean, that they are thinking of keeping Pagan ??

It should mean that more than Pagan will leaving Carlton at end of season.

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Mjonc signing off at 8888

Interesting post Laguna.

I reckon 1, 3 and 5 might have been intertwined. Sticks would be due for a big kick in the ar$e.

I'm still on board the Hughes bandwagon. By going predominantly for athletic talls, he has tried to fill a gaping hole in our structure. They take longer to come on and there's more risk involved than going for a small who's ready to go. But we should have a good selection to play and others to trade as time goes on.

Going for Alwyn Davey types would have been easy and populist. I admire the willingness to take the longer view.

Let's see now - Fevola, Scotland, Lappin ........

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I love spinach

That is the best thing I've heard all day.

Re Pagan, at this point it doesn't matter if the powers that be think that he got dealt a dud hand. They simply can't put a broom through the club but keep the coach. It defeats the entire concept of a "fresh start".

Apologies if this point has been raised earlier in this thread; but if a coach has lost the players, does it make a difference whose 'fault' it is, or if the coach is seen to be left hung out to dry?

It seems painfully obvious from both performance on the field and the whispers we see here from those closer to the situation than many of us us that Pagan has totally lost the respect of the playing group. Whether this is through his doing in his normal coaching process, or the machinations of others (ie all the people involved in the Mitchell debacle), doesn't really make a difference to me. We need someone who's going to reconnect with the players and provide some inspiration and support tot hem. This clearly isn't happening now.

Just to re-emphasise what I was told.......

Its about weighing up what went wrong and why. It doesn't necessarily mean that people will be moved on. The review will centre on all coaches, coaching methods, recruiting and why we drafted the way we did. It will ask some serious questions. Namely the lack of previous funding to the football department to carry on its duties. It appears that this lack of funds has resulted in too much of a load on DP and WH in particular and may have contributed to the on-field results we are now seeing.

Some people at the club hold the view that if these 2 were given the resources that other clubs have we would have got better results.

Sometimes its easy to lay the blame solely at the coach's feet (so I was told). There is a lot of sympathy amongst a number of heavies on this point. (For instance the announcement recently that we will be appointing development coaches)

Too much has been left to too few. We had the most under-resourced football department going around.

That doesn't mean that DP and others are safe. It also doesn't mean people/coaches will be sacked.

I'm actually pretty happy with what you are saying Laguna. Even though I am not a DP fan, I think it is vital that the Club follows the proper processes in making their decision. I have good faith in Swann, Icke, and Pratt, and if the decision is made that Denis is the right man for the job then so be it... they know a heap more than me about the place and how it runs.

Other than that, I can tell you that Channel 10 Brisbane now has Joel MacDonald as our senior coach anyway. They had an interview with young J-Mac last night, and the caption underneath his name said 'Carlton Coach'. Maybe Joel MacDonald is the man from left field that Blueman has been seeing all of this time

I fully understand and accept the point re the #1 Priority Pick, but I also think a very strong case can be made for removing Pagan much sooner, rather than later.

Perhaps it is a short sighted view brought on by the departures of two other coaches in recent weeks, but I can't see how the club, whoever was involved, can make a stand against Fevola's on field actions (and I support that stand) and yet leave Pagan at the helm seemingly unaccountable for his own actions.

At the end of the 2002 season the club was right to move by sacking Brittain, okay there were numerous other forces at play in that decision, but ultimately the decision to sack Brittain was, I believe, the right one. A proud club like Carlton should not accept failure.

Subsequent years have shown the club was in more of a mess than any of us could have ever dreamed. On that basis I think it was right to cut Pagan some slack. But that time has clearly passed.

IMO, we've gone beyond breaking point. The coaching panel needs a dramatic shake up and perhaps in time leaving Pagan to see the season out might prove to be the right decision, but right now, from my lounge in Canberra, I think Pagan needs to go before the end of the season. The players, our core commodity, need some sign that the club is deadly serious about turning around it's on field fortunes and that it will no longer stand for Pagan's poor results.

I think the risk of losing pick #1 is worth taking to save whatever skerrick of respect our players would have for the position of senior coach and those who appoint that position. It's dead easy for us to sit back and pray for losses so that we get pick #1, but do you reckon the players would enjoy that thought?

Pagan must go now!

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Rocket Eade & Laidley seemed to have coped ok with minimal resources.

Excuses excuses excuses
Fair dinkum, if there are 'heavies' that think like that we're in big @#$%&! trouble.

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There's so much I could say...

not as a simple as that, you need to look no further than Thompson at Geelong last year, and what he has done this year.

dont get me wrong, i think the game has passed Pagan, but the lack of spending is clear for all to see.

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

Lack of resources don't help, but that doesn't excuse all his other failings as Carlton coach. To use that as the greater issue is ignorance at its best.

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There's so much I could say...

Resources dont make you come up with decent training drills.
Resources dont stop you having tactical knowledge.
Resources are'nt the reason for being reactive in the coaches box.
Resources dont make you a progressive coach who understands rotations and varying gamestyles.
Resources dont make you chase has beens like Zantuck instead of showing faith in youngsters.

If anyone truly believes Pagans inadequacies are the result of resources, we have voted in a bigger bunch of nuff nuffs than we had.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

dont get me wrong, i think the game has passed Pagan, but the lack of spending is clear for all to see



i agree with what you are saying, however, some of our kids would be showing alot more if we had the right infastructure around them.

do you think collingwoods kids coming through are becuase of Malthouse or the infastructure around them??

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

As I said, Eade & Laidley are coping ok with minimul 'infrastructure'

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There's so much I could say...

We can't point to the lack of resources as an overriding excuse for the poor performance. It doesn't help, that's for sure, and the players would benefit quite a bit if they had pristine million dollar facilities like the filth (who are apparently the "working class" club ) or the interstaters.

But it comes down to the people steering the rudder. The fact that not only do we have a coach who plays favourites, doesn't talk to younger players and is VERY limited tactically (not to mention not talking to our reserves coach), but that alone makes all other deficiencies around the playing group much more profound. The mix of bad coaching/communication AND bad facilities/environment is a lethal one.

im not defending pagan, by an stretch, but the lack of spending in our football department is partly to blame for what we see.

myself, i would have fired Pagan weeks ago.

i dont care if you dont like a person or whatever, but if you cant have a professional working relationship with the coach of your reserves and communicate effectively between the two in what is probably the single most important role of our club at the minute (development of all the kids) i would have given the ass to both of them weeks ago.

that has been the biggest issue for me out of all of it, and unfortunately, it is this aspect, which we can least afford that has cost us the most. We have effectively lost a year of development becuase of this stalemate, and i would give both the ass instantly becuase of it.

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod