I don't think any coach is the complete package. Each has their strengths and weaknesses.

Worsfold may not be a tactical genius, but his strength clearly lies in binding a club and a playing list together to achieve a goal (ie - leadership). Can he pull off clever moves like Eade? Probably not, but when he walked back into WC, they were (as Siegfried points out) a rabble.

In a lot of ways, you could probably say that Voss shares many characteristics of Worsfold. A strong personality with that extra 'something' that would make young men gravitate to him. Maybe not a proven tactical genius, but I reckon 3/4 of the battle is leadership. And I reckon Voss has it.

Anyway... the end of Pagan's reign? I hope we've already come to a suitable arrangement with Voss, Pagan has 7 more weeks tenure, and Matthew Kruezer is presented with his new Carlton jumper by Vossy on draft day.

After reading the board members answers to our questions, I am a little concerned about the on field answers.

It was said that they thought 2-3 years and we will be competitive and it can all turn around quickly.

I hope that Pagan has not deluded them into thinking that one day it will all snap into place with him at the helm. I reckon he has the gift of the gab and can make them think that we are on the right track.

He has had 5 years and has not made any inroads, I hope they dont think that he needs another 2-3 years.

Oh, and now the number of people who think Pagan should stay on as coach of carlton next year is up to 9.

Let's see, that'd be:
Mandy
ADP
Old 55
Cooloola
GarthP
Sedat...

Don't worry Fevola...

(a) the board will accept Greg Swann's recommendation on the coaching situation. Mark and Co. made that pretty clear. As has Pratt.

(b) Icke and Swann have no allegience to Pagan - their only remit is the restoration of our club's fortunes. They won't be fooled by Pagan's bullshit.

(c) even snowy off the trams can see that Pagan is history at our club.

7 weeks till Christmas.

Pagan has been saying things can turn around quickly for at least the last 2 years. We're still waiting!

I get what your saying Brad.....................

But unfortunatly i have very little paitence.

Patience, to me anyway, is the StKilda & Richmond of the Football world.

We (as in Carlton) seemed to have undertaken a mentality of let's hope things get better soon.

It's like the Smorgan/Malouf issue.
Clearly, these two were not right for the club and the club was getting lower and lower and lower. But yet (and all credit to them too) they continued on slowly killing the club but pretending AND making others believe that their is "Light at the end of the tunnel".............................

I'm sorry but the only time that i FINALLY began to believe in the 'Light' was when i saw the back of them and Pratt come in.

Pratt (and co.) have done amazing things for this club in such a short time...................but Pratt has said that he will only give 2 years to this club. 2 years is nothing in football! In 2 years, you have very little time for Paitence.

I wonder if i went to my boss and said......................... "i'm not making sales and i haven't met budget for perhaps 1-2 years, but please 'Be Paitent'!....................I wonder what he/she would say? Cause that's pretty much what's happening.

I TOTALLY understand your 'calling' for us to have 'Patience' and can only imagine that the contstant sounds of me 'Calling for Pagan' to be sacked must be irritating you (and god only knows how many others)..........but if that's correct then it means that i'm doing my job!


It really saddens me to see that the majority of us on this site DON'T want to win another game this year. For what?????? A Priority Pick?

Let me ask you this?

Do you think Richmond are gonna happily recieve the wooden spoon whilst we take thier number 1 pick? God no...................Knowing that they will know miss out on pick #1 (whoever that is) there is no point or valid reason for them to finish last. They will now head out and try to win as many games as possible to overtake us.................And for that, they now have the 'edge' over us...............cause they have just adopted a 'Winning Mentaility'.

Let me end on this 'Patience' Issue with this statement (that some probably already know about me)..........................................

I USED TO BE A FITZROY SUPPORTER!

Somebody once told me the EXACT same thing you just did.................Have Patience' kid......................

They took my club away from me and i remembered watching My Dad & Brother (who were forever Carlton supporters) and thinking "They would never let this happen to Carlton...............They're a winning team and DO NOT STAND FOR MEDIOCRITY!"

Quite a few Fitzroy supporters still blame the VFL/AFL for their Demise (or merger if you wanna call it that).......................except me. I throw the blame largley towards the ex-supporters. The ones who just 'Accepted' that they were crap and lived in hope that they would one day 'turn it all around'.

These past few years have had a familiar feeling of 'De-Javu' to me.

Thankfully, the outing of Smorgan & Malouf and the adding of Pratt & Swann and the constant 'contact' and 'communication' with board members (Ie, tonight) have given me some reasurance.

So again, getting back to what i was saying before.............................I thank you for your understanding of my passion and realising just how much i love this club........................but i beg of you to understand that it is my lack of patience that is mainly to thank for this!

Anyway...............apologies!

_________________
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

I really hope so JohnM, as I am really fearfull for this club if he remains there next year.

For me personally, it would change my whole opinion in the board and management of the club. I will go back to not having any faith in them and their decisions again.

I have supported Carlton since 1981 and I am sick of the ridicule my club gets, and how much everyone laughs when I am constantly sticking up for my club.

I have grown up with Carlton fixing everything quickly and now we just keep on getting worse and worse.

For me its simple, the off field stuff is sorting itself out and the most important part of the puzzle is the Coach, then I think things will fall into place. Not straight away, but we will at least have some hope.

I literally cannot be bothered going to any more games. I will because I cannot help myself, but my heart is not into it as I am so frustrated.

you should never apologise about being passionate, ryan!

from my perspective, the OFF-FIELD fortunes of our club have been shifted 3 years ahead in a matter of months. We're in the midst of huge, fundamental change. Off-field, our board (led by Sir Richard) is making things happen very bloody quickly.

ON-FIELD... well, there's not much you can do mid-season. About the only 'action' they could take is to put Pagan out on his arse and stick Ratts in there for the last 7 games. Which would sneak us maybe an extra win, which would be the worst of all scenario's (still finishing 15th, but no Kreuzer). Blcchhh to that, I say.

I believe that this is the way the board are looking at it:

STEP ONE:
BRING MONEY INTO CLUB IN A FASHION THAT CAN BE SUSTAINED OVER A LONG PERIOD.

STEP TWO:
SPEND MONEY ON THE FOOTBALL DEPARTMENT (RECRUITING, PLAYER DEVELOPMENT, COACHING)

STEP THREE:
EMPOWER ICKE AND SWANN TO GET OUR SHIT INTO GEAR

STEP FOUR:
ENSURE STEPS TWO AND THREE LEAD TO BETTER OUTPUT ONFIELD, AS WELL AS MAKING THE CFC A MORE ATTRACTIVE DESTINATION FOR FOOTBALLERS.

STEP FIVE:
SUSTAINED SUCCESS

Don't forget: our board is smart enough to NOT use the funds they've raised this year to repay the AFL. They've used them to (a) reduce our bank debt to a manageable level and (b) pour resources into the football department.

Their actions WILL lead to a rise in our fortunes. Not because we 'belong' at the top, but because as a club, we're now finally doing what it takes to succeed in the 21st Century.

I suggest that Carlton will be a place that is brimming with newfound optimism at the beginning of the calendar year of 2008, with new players and a new coach.

This might also be roughly the same time that Mr Bush signs off on an attack on Iran, which as far as I am concerned is a good omen for Carlton, but a bad omen for the rest of the world.

When the chimp starts to agree with the monkey trainer, a worldline might just take a sudden turn for the worse.

to see more - check this link : http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/a ... 2003369914

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My Blue Heaven

no disrespect to your timeline blueman, but Bush invading Iran during an election year would be complete and utter political suicide.

I just can't imagine that the republican party would let him. despite the fact that his closest advisers are borderline sociopaths.

Actually, having thought about it for a minute, I take that back.

No act would be too insanely stupid for Dubya and his crew.

Im glad you took a minute to reflect. This article apparently suggests that Cheney has convinced Bush that it would be a good idea to attack Iran before the end of his term -

this is because both of them think that they couldnt trust either a Republican or a Democrat to 'deal decisively' with the Iran issue - well at least they are correct on that score.

as I have been saying since 2002 - Carlton comes good during the time of a scary and very bad war that affects everyone...

Ive tipped that the said war will either be early 2008 or else early 2009..Carlton would do well in either of these years if it is a year which features a large and very destructive war.

_________________
My Blue Heaven

Just checked in to see if DP was still coach. It appears he is.

Carry on then....

connoly gone - that makes it 2 coaches that have stepped down with dignity. If only pagan could do the same

Guys, don't want to be the bearer of bad tidings but there is far more to it than just Pagan going.

This site is read by some very influential people at Carlton (as I have just found out this morning) and they all understand the pain greatly.

However, a few things were highlighted to me this morning by this person and we should prepare ourselves........

1. A thorough review is currently underway of the entire administration and football department.
2. All people will be interviewed and appraised including players.
3. Swann was "amazed" when he got to the club
4. Heavy scrutiny is on Hughes. It has been suggested that his selection criteria and methods have resulted in "wrong" selections. The comment that was made to me were that apart from Gibbs and Murphy - who were "no-brainers" - his selections have bordered on hope rather than concrete knowledge
5. That the Mitchell/Pagan saga is not entirely all DP's making
6. That while there are some justifiable facts to move DP on he has some strong support from key-decision makers who believe that he is being unfairly hung out as the sole reason for poor on-field performances.
7. That some "senior Players" need to pull their collective heads in and start playing for the team rather than themselves

Take this for what it is worth

FFS, if Pagan remains coach after yet another embaressing year, then this Club is an even bigger embaressment then we all thought. However, glad to hear Hughes is feeling the heat.

_________________
James Hird and Essendon* FC - #FOREVERDRUGCHEATS

There needs to be a complete shake-up at the club, and with Pratt, Swann and Icke at the reins we've already seen it begin. It's been a long while since I've felt as confident that there's some positive change afoot.

_________________
"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

Nice stuff, Laguna.

I reckon most of us couldn't give a stuff whose at fault re Mitchell/Pagan, we just wanted the bloody thing fixed. A vital year in proper player development may have been lost and its a disgrace. This is the LAST club that could afford for that to happen.

Re DP, maybe your source meant he won't go straight away. They could not be silly enough to keep him for 2008, surely.

Hughesys job is to recruit the talent.
It is then up to the football department to develop them.

Lets not forget many of these players were highly rated juniors including All Australian nominees.
Pagan can blame the recruiters, blame the fitness staff, blame whoever he wants.
Until he makes an honest appraisal of his own performance, his ability to lay blame elsewhere is just another diversion from the real problem IMO.

_________________
Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Weed out those who do not bleed blue for the common cause of Premiership 17. Reputations count for nothing IMO.

_________________
Mjonc signing off at 8888