indeed

but we dont have that do we, and Pagan is unable to cope with it

therefore he isnt good enough for the job

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

It could be said Malthouse was supposedly 'unable to cope with it' when the Pies needed some extra talent. Now look.
Doesn't change my argument IMHO.

How many more years would you give Dennis. Keep in mind we are about to win spoon number 3 in a row.

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" Koutoufides has taken the last quarter by the scruff of the neck..." Commentary Drew Morphett Last Qtr '99 Prelim. Pure Gold.

Thanks for the memories Kouta. You are and always will be a True Blue Carlton Legend. #43.

Its a good question. Yes we have had unprecedented failure in the last few years- but a good reveiw has to include mitigating factors- would we be where we are right now this year if Stevens & Cloke were fit and playing? If Lance was fit and uninjured? If Fev had his head straight? If we hadn't lost Betts at the time we did?
I still remember the Hawks getting thrashed in recent years-now look. (Same coach)
In fact, I heard the other day (but haven't checked it myself) that the Hawks last year were thrashed 4 times by a 100 points or more-you wouldn't know it this year would you?

And I still believe that our rebuilding involves the recruitment of young talent for our backline. That takes a few years-as our current defence or lack of, shows. The young recruits we have picked up to play back so far-are still developing in the Bullants.

To answer you, I don't know how many more years I would give Dennis. But I am not comfortable with being reactive just yet. I would give until the end of the year-assess all the factors and then view whether anyone else would have done any better.

I would have taken 4 wins in the Ist half of the season if asked at at the beginning of the year.

The next successful Carlton team is going to be made up 90% of draft picks developed from 18yos by Carlton. In 2002 we all hoped there would be short cuts in the process, as we realistically only had a couple of decent kids at the time (Waite, Fevola, Houlihan) due to the mistakes of the 90s. Now it's clear there aren't any short cuts, and trying to cut corners has probably cost us in the end.

So, given we basically had to draft a whole team, how long should that take?

To be sucessful you really need a core of players with good experience and mature bodies. I'd say about 24 year old is the average age for a AFL player to reach a level near their peak.

We didn't draft well in 2000.
We mostly traded out of the 2001 draft.
We were restricted in the 2002 and 2003 drafts.

If we'd done well in drafting from 2000 on without any of the above, I'd expect the team to have become competitive around 2006. (6 years for a draftee to reach 24 years old).

As it is, we're really looking at 2008 for the kids we've drafted to start coming on. There isn't a lot we could do to speed that process up.

We were never going to be competitive over the last 5 years. I believe we could have been better than we were, although the downside of that would be worse draft picks.

I'm not saying Pagan hasn't made many mistakes. I'm not saying I'd keep Pagan as coach after this year (and I very much doubt he will be). Just that the length of time we were down was probably more determined by the list than the coach. I think he could have developed the players better, traded for less average players etc. We'd still have been a poor side for the last 5 years though.

the simple thing is this

will pagan take us to the next level?

IMO no

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

Exactly. IMO we would be taking a massive risk if we were to persist with Pagan. Just as you guys have said that we still need to develop our team especially in defence etc...we also need to keep developing our coaching personnel as well. Yes we haven't had a great list in recent times, but have we had a great coach and staff???
Remember who signed Pagan as coach and in what state that man left the club. If you believe the Pagan/Mitchell relationship is a healthy one for the club and its player development then you're disillusioned. The club has begun a clean out in recent times and this must be allowed to continue on all levels.
Mitchell and Pagan are part of this cleanout and must go preferrably immediately (but at the very least at season's end). Any player not fully committed to the club and willing to play till he drops every week should be let go or traded. A new coach and coaching staff must be signed up (after the required processess to determine the best team) to put forward a plan for the future and what is required by all at the club to successfully implement that plan.
Hanging on to the status quo and saying its not pagan's fault but the list and the penalties...blah blah blah...will lead us to only more of the status quo in on field performances. And no Carlton supporter wants that and thats what matters to me...its all about what the Carlton supporters want and where they want their club to be.
The supporters have come to the party this year (i.e record membership) because they are confident that real change is starting to happen. If this confidence is shattered and supporters sense that the status quo is even being considered. The consequences will be devastating.

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" Koutoufides has taken the last quarter by the scruff of the neck..." Commentary Drew Morphett Last Qtr '99 Prelim. Pure Gold.

Thanks for the memories Kouta. You are and always will be a True Blue Carlton Legend. #43.

the entire Pagan/Mitchell thing is a disgrace.

i dont give a stuff it the bloke is your mortal enemy

in a professional work place you have to have a working relationship regardless of your feelings for the person.

there is no other job/business in the world that would see what we are currently seeing with it all.

Boht have to go IMO

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

the entire Pagan/Mitchell thing is a disgrace.

i dont give a stuff it the bloke is your mortal enemy

in a professional work place you have to have a working relationship regardless of your feelings for the person.

there is no other job/business in the world that would see what we are currently seeing with it all.

Boht have to go IMO

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

What if?????

What if Essendon* kicked 16 straight in the first quarter instead of 7.9?
What if we'd kicked less accurately against Port and Bulldogs?

The facts are that Carlton has been luckier than most with injury for 5 years!
Yet in that time we've still had a pathetic win/loss ratio.
In fact this year, we've won less quarters than any team in the AFL.

We're really scraping the barrel if we're blaming injuries for our ineptitude because its just blatantly untrue!!!

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Has he figured out what happened against Hawthorn yet?

In this situation it is easier to change the coach instead of continually changing players to cater for coach who cant get the best out of a potentially talented list

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CFC TAC Squad everyone over 25 must be traded sounds like Loguns Run

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Mens sana in corpore sano.

Bring back the laurel wreath logo!!!

Yes, we got ahead of ourselves apparently.

If you're keen on Voss and you sack Pagan and put Ratten in as caretaker (surely not Mitchel!!) then it could get difficult closing a deal with Voss. You could end up with a Roos/Wallace situation when Eade left Sydney. It could get tricky to wait until R22 to make a decision because Melbourne sure as hell wont be and I'm hoping Voss is on top of our interview list.

Easy peasy. Sign up Voss today (it doesn't have to be a contract per se, more a statement of intent from both parties) starting date the day after our Round 22 match. Sack Pagan then.

If Voss is our man, I really don't see the point in sacking den mid-season.

It'd be interesting to see which way Voss would go. A year ago, you'd probably say that Melbourne would be a more attractive option than Carlton. But Post-Pratt, we seem to have the income streams sorted so there'll be no scrimping and saving in the football department, strong off-field management in Swann and Icke and yet another year of (most likely) good draft picks.

Plus - at Carlton he'd be taking over a club that seriously can only get better, so he's going to look pretty good.

I may be biased, but if I was Voss, I'd choose Carlton.

I agree John, that scenario is very possible and if so "sack Pagan now!" is futile. Also agree that post-Pratt Carlton looks more attractive.

I hope you beat us twice again this year and stick with Pagan. He's doing a great job! I better vote.

There are some things we are certain of:

1. Pagan has been an unsuccessful coach at Carlton

No matter how you look at it, he has been the senior coach of the CFC for 5 years. He inherited some major problems, however we still languish at the bottom of the ladder. That is unacceptable.

2. Pratt, Swann and Icke are very successful men.

All 3 of our major administrators are successful. They will definently have KPI assessment strategies. Pagan could not have hit these targets. They will/do have a plan. There is no doubt in my mind that these men will make the right decison.

3. The playing list is still too shallow in regards to talent.

We need ruckmen, defenders and leaders. We need draft picks and whilst Pagan is unsucessful we are in a position to add talent to the playing group. Pagan will therefore last to the end of the year.

HYPOTHESIS

Pagan will be sacked in late August and a new coach will be appointed to help Icke select players from the draft and/or trade. I have a feeling Fev is going and some running players (maybe Judd...who knows?) will be traded into the group.

I dont know who the coach will be but I am certain that Pagan is not in future plans. He has failed...end of story

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They coud'nt.....could they?

The only person at the colub who thinks he is a chance of staying is Denis... hoping he can cling on and still turn this club around .

Its over!

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Well that's the front he puts on for the cameras. But he knows deep-down that he is finished. There's no way he can't.