Elliot Legacy / Campo and how it has affected last 3 years

Braddlesforever · **Joined:** Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:44 pm **Posts:** 30

Yep, Malouf is fine, keep him, but both Collo & Pagan need to go.

Collo is very old school and really can't be trusted. He is a the old fashioned snake oil salesman and seems like he is playing poker all the time - trying to bluff everyone at the club rather than working with them.

Pagan is also old school, like Malthouse, Sheedy who are now running bottom 4 clubs. Look at the coaches of the top 4 sides of 2005, all of them
are from the "new school" and are relatively young. I can see a pattern of massive change occuring in the coaching ranks as I have alluded to.

Replace both Collo & Pagan with people of a culture more attunded to this century not last and we may yet again be successful, anything else is just window dressing.

camel · **Posted:** Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:46 pm

7dominator wrote:

A fantastic post BV!

I would think that the Club monitors the Supporters Forums.Hopefully our Executive eventually read the mood of the fan base and "bite the bullet".

After 4 dreadful years we (the Supporters)were ready for "the line in the sand".

What better time to implement change!

Well said 7dom, along with Wolfe, BV et al, of course.

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 17959

Blue Vain wrote:

Our desperation to succeed has seen us compromise our principles continually over the past decade and when we had the opportunity to start again, we lacked the courage to do so.

We can point the finger at Camporeale but what examples were set for him?
His business partner and former captain of our club would take his bat and ball whenever he didnt get his way financially and refuse to train with his teammates.
Because Bradley was a good player we compromised and let him dictate a scenario which wouldnt have been tolerated by lesser players.
The moment Bradley refused to train with the club, he should have been put on the first bus to Port and told to flower off.
But we sacrificed our principles for fear of losing something.

When these decisions are made, the consequences are not always immediately apparent.
3 years ago we bought a lying thief into our club.
His character was abysmal but I like others forgave him his past because he had talent.
We allowed this player to steal off his teammates and club volunteers on numerous occasions at and away from the club.
We allowed this poison to infiltrate our playing group and continually made concessions for him that would not be afforded others.
We again sacrificed our principles for fear of losing.

Just to complicate this issue, even some of our senior players who benefitted from our lack of courage on numerous occasions were horrified at the concessions the club was making.
Some it appears took a stand and were condemned or ostracised.
Some were hypocritical in their actions but others acted with honourable intentions and I owe them an apology.

We cut lose Angwin and retained Norman who's character was questionable at best.
This player turned up to training off his face, has committed more misdemeanors than the media and supporters are aware of but we took him when no one else would.
Why? We compromised our principles for a chance at success.

This year we had the opportunity to put a plan in place and start again.
This could have been our ground zero.
We talked the talk but did we have the guts to see it through?
Instead of talking negotiation and compromise, we came out on the front foot and made defining statements.
Collo said the offers were in place for players and the club would not move.
He wasnt compelled to say anything but the club made a conscious decision to take a stand.

When push came to shove, we didnt have the guts to see it through.
The message is no different today to what is was 5 years ago.
The club will compromise for some and not others.
Lance Whitnall has shown 2 out of the past 3 years that he doesnt have the disciplined required to be a professional athlete.
I know some people will take cheap shots and say I hate Lance but thats thats not the case.
Give me the character and desire of a Adam Bentick everytime over a Lance Whitnall.
If players dont have the neccesary commitment and desire, get rid of them.
Commitment and desire should be the criteria for any player that plays for Carlton now.

Perhaps we may have only recieved a late first rounder for Lance but thats not the point.
We had an opportunity to make a stand and we didnt do it.

When Camporeale looked at Bradley 10 years ago, the message was about selfish attitudes and a lack of courage from the board.
When one of our youngsters looked to be paid above the odds 3 months ago, the message was the same.

We had the chance to draw a line in the sand but we lacked the courage to do so.

I know some people will point at sponsors etc and give excuses why we couldnt go ahead with it.
Its not true.
Sponsors will be a part of an exciting future.
They'll hang in there if a comprehensive exciting plan is in place.
We dont have one.
They dont want to stagnate.
Lets hope we dont.

I wrote this post the best part of 2 years ago.
At last, thanks probably to Swann and Icke, the club has made a stand.
To quote a big mouthed ex Hawks player, its time to draw a line in the sand.

Thankfully Fev is being pulled into line. Eventually!
Clubs cannot tolerate players who have their own set of rules. Fev does U turns that Josh Kennedy would be dragged for. He goes to ground when he chases so that he doesnt have to supply second efforts. He gives away downfield free kicks when he eventually catches the person he's chasing.
He is petulant and childish.
He has been allowed to get away with things that no other player in our team could.

The time has come to sweep the floors clean and start again. No more double standards, no more recruiting players of questionable character, no more prostituting our standards for a scrap of talent.

If Fev doesnt want to be a team player, move him on now.
Denis has consistently shown an inability to put character before talent in chasing success. If not for the courage of the board, we'd be adding Gardiner and Zantuck to Angwin and Fevola.
Move him on now.

If the club is fair dinkum, show a commitment now.
Clear the decks. Set some transparent standards and stick by them.
Dont let Lance back until he is physically AFL standard. Dont let Fevola back unless he is committed completely.
Bring in a coach that can set the standards required. No more patch ups, no more quick fixes, a strong comprehensive rebuild.

Its not like we can tarnish ourselves further. Be proactive and become the new Carlton today.

Rhys26 · **Joined:** Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:12 am **Posts:** 1730

Blue Vain wrote:

Our desperation to succeed has seen us compromise our principles continually over the past decade and when we had the opportunity to start again, we lacked the courage to do so.

We can point the finger at Camporeale but what examples were set for him?
His business partner and former captain of our club would take his bat and ball whenever he didnt get his way financially and refuse to train with his teammates.
Because Bradley was a good player we compromised and let him dictate a scenario which wouldnt have been tolerated by lesser players.
The moment Bradley refused to train with the club, he should have been put on the first bus to Port and told to flower off.
But we sacrificed our principles for fear of losing something.

When these decisions are made, the consequences are not always immediately apparent.
3 years ago we bought a lying thief into our club.
His character was abysmal but I like others forgave him his past because he had talent.
We allowed this player to steal off his teammates and club volunteers on numerous occasions at and away from the club.
We allowed this poison to infiltrate our playing group and continually made concessions for him that would not be afforded others.
We again sacrificed our principles for fear of losing.

Just to complicate this issue, even some of our senior players who benefitted from our lack of courage on numerous occasions were horrified at the concessions the club was making.
Some it appears took a stand and were condemned or ostracised.
Some were hypocritical in their actions but others acted with honourable intentions and I owe them an apology.

We cut lose Angwin and retained Norman who's character was questionable at best.
This player turned up to training off his face, has committed more misdemeanors than the media and supporters are aware of but we took him when no one else would.
Why? We compromised our principles for a chance at success.

This year we had the opportunity to put a plan in place and start again.
This could have been our ground zero.
We talked the talk but did we have the guts to see it through?
Instead of talking negotiation and compromise, we came out on the front foot and made defining statements.
Collo said the offers were in place for players and the club would not move.
He wasnt compelled to say anything but the club made a conscious decision to take a stand.

When push came to shove, we didnt have the guts to see it through.
The message is no different today to what is was 5 years ago.
The club will compromise for some and not others.
Lance Whitnall has shown 2 out of the past 3 years that he doesnt have the disciplined required to be a professional athlete.
I know some people will take cheap shots and say I hate Lance but thats thats not the case.
Give me the character and desire of a Adam Bentick everytime over a Lance Whitnall.
If players dont have the neccesary commitment and desire, get rid of them.
Commitment and desire should be the criteria for any player that plays for Carlton now.

Perhaps we may have only recieved a late first rounder for Lance but thats not the point.
We had an opportunity to make a stand and we didnt do it.

When Camporeale looked at Bradley 10 years ago, the message was about selfish attitudes and a lack of courage from the board.
When one of our youngsters looked to be paid above the odds 3 months ago, the message was the same.

We had the chance to draw a line in the sand but we lacked the courage to do so.

I know some people will point at sponsors etc and give excuses why we couldnt go ahead with it.
Its not true.
Sponsors will be a part of an exciting future.
They'll hang in there if a comprehensive exciting plan is in place.
We dont have one.
They dont want to stagnate.
Lets hope we dont.

I wrote this post the best part of 2 years ago.
At last, thanks probably to Swann and Icke, the club has made a stand.
To quote a big mouthed ex Hawks player, its time to draw a line in the sand.

Thankfully Fev is being pulled into line. Eventually!
Clubs cannot tolerate players who have their own set of rules. Fev does U turns that Josh Kennedy would be dragged for. He goes to ground when he chases so that he doesnt have to supply second efforts. He gives away downfield free kicks when he eventually catches the person he's chasing.
He is petulant and childish.
He has been allowed to get away with things that no other player in our team could.

The time has come to sweep the floors clean and start again. No more double standards, no more recruiting players of questionable character, no more prostituting our standards for a scrap of talent.

If Fev doesnt want to be a team player, move him on now.
Denis has consistently shown an inability to put character before talent in chasing success. If not for the courage of the board, we'd be adding Gardiner and Zantuck to Angwin and Fevola.
Move him on now.

If the club is fair dinkum, show a commitment now.
Clear the decks. Set some transparent standards and stick by them.
Dont let Lance back until he is physically AFL standard. Dont let Fevola back unless he is committed completely.
Bring in a coach that can set the standards required. No more patch ups, no more quick fixes, a strong comprehensive rebuild.

Its not like we can tarnish ourselves further. Be proactive and become the new Carlton today.

Pure quality post!!
Some people still wouldn't get it though..Most importantly our coach and captain wouldn't understand what you mean

Rambo Stallone · **Posted:** Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:23 pm

I agree even if you are a great player and you not performing or unfit you go back in the seconds no matter who it is.I didn't like the idea of the Northern Bullant teams list saying this 10 Carlton players will not be playing for the Bullants,to me that's favouritism,it doesn't go well with the other 28 busting each week,you need the kids looking up to the experienced players and catching up to them and the players trying to be as good as them a even chance.

dannyboy · **Posted:** Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:22 pm

sometimes I love you Bv

oh but then I remember that ugly mug of yours

you'll get no poems from me

still

I agree

yes yes

and even sadly

I agree I agree I agree.

Do it.

LostInSyd · **Posted:** Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:31 pm

I remember reading that 2 years ago Bv, and I reread it now and I am, like then, in total agreement with your sentiment. Itâ€™s more important now than it was then, as we have a young group coming through with little to no senior leadership, except what they see on and off the field.

We need to be strong in this area, or the last 5 years will seem like a mild dream.

blueman · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:28 pm **Posts:** 2220

The discipline and sense of team values that the new Carlton shows is the difference between an average team making the final 8 or missing out.

The new team that we will see isnt a world beating team of champions, but one which is close knit and well drilled - but average to a bit above average when measured against the famous Carlton teams of the past.

The closest present team to what I believe the new Carlton of the near future will be like is a slightly better version of the Western Bulldogs.

Given the events of the past few days. Id say that it is quite likely that Fevola isnt a part of this new team, and while skill wise we are poorer for this, team wise, we are not.

The only way that Brendan could become a part of the new Carlton now would be if there was a real change in his 26 years of conditioning - which is a big ask.

Siegfried · **Joined:** Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:30 pm **Posts:** 2862

Interesting reading. There is no doubt there has been a culture at the Club for a very long time that hasn't been particularly healthy. For years, because footy wasn't professional and had minimal rules and regulations, we could get away with it. Certainly it was evident right through the Elliott reign, but I suspect it may have gone back to the days of George Harris (but I was too young then to really know what was going on).

It's interesting that many people want to see the Carlton arrogance return. I know this arrogance takes many guises, but to me, much of it is associated with these inappropriate practices. I fear it's still there, Kernahan's speech at last year's B&F smacked of it..."We're Carlton, f-ck the rest!". It's like, we don't give a toss about anyone else, we'll do what we want.

Well, things don't work like that anymore.

Clubs in this competition become successful nowadays by running astute business operations, following professional practices, within the law. Look at the interstate clubs and see how brilliantly they are run, and how powerful they have become because of it. With Pratt and Swann on board, I feel for the first time in many years that Carlton will be run in a professional manner (although I still worry about Kernahan's involvement).

The stand on Fevola (and Whitnall) should be congratulated. Yes, it is too late, but nevertheless, it has been taken. We use it as a springboard to move forward.

But there are some other things that concern me, specifically about the attitude of many on this site.

Last year, many were calling on Fevola to be made Captain, on the back of one great season and 9 months good behaviour.

Last year, many were calling on Murphy to be given the Captaincy, even though he had only played 13 games.

Last year, many were arguing that Fevola was being victimsed by the reaction back here to his incident in Ireland.

With the advantage of hindsight, it can be clearly seen that appointing Fevola to the Captaincy would have been a disastrous move. Ditto Murphy, who is struggling with his own game, and is nowhere near being able to take on the Captaincy.

And the refusal to adequately discipline Fevola is now coming back to bite us on the arse.

If we truly want to be a powerhouse again, we need the Club to act in a professional manner, exhibiting the highest standards in all areas of the operation of a football club. This goes from President, through to the Board, management, coaching department, football staff, and the players.

This means making decisions that reward performance over sustained periods.

It means demanding team ethic and absolute discipline, no matter who or how good you are.

It means giving the players all the support they need, and allowing them to develop as they need to, and giving them the time to do so, no matter how frustrating it may seem.

It means making the tough decisions when it is necessary.

It means putting Carlton Football Club before any one individual.

And as supporters, it means demanding the same from our Club, and accepting it from our Club. It means not calling for the appointment of a player as Captain because he has done the right thing for 9 months, or because we feel that he eventually will be Captain, so let's give it to him now.

It means not rushing young kids into the seniors before they are ready, as so many on here are calling for, even if it means an average senior player gets games when he doesn't really deserve them. It's not ideal, but we have to let players develop in their own time, and not throw them to the wolves and set them back 5 years. The development of the young players is so much more important than having to endure the frustration of average senior players getting games when they don't deserve it.

And it means that the most important decision that this Club has to make right now, the appointment of the next senior coach, must be done through a thorough and rigorous process to find the best possible candidate. We simply cannot afford to get this decision wrong...it could set us back another 15 years if we do.

All those people who are calling for Voss (or anyone else for that matter) to be appointed senior coach, without really knowing what he is like tactically, and how he compares to other candidates, are throwing back to those very same unprofessional days we are trying to leave behind, those days that have contributed to the Club declining to such a sorry state.

The search for our next senior coach MUST be conducted professionally and exhaustively, using current best practices. Nothing less.

It is time that this football club (and Swann gives me great confidence about this, even if Kernahan does not) AND its supporters understand that if we want to once again be a powerhouse of the competition, there are no longer any short cuts.

It is done through professional practices, due dilligence, thorough and exhaustive processes, humility and bloody hard work.

George Harris · **Posted:** Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:32 pm

Well done, Siegfried.

POW.

I think a perfect summation of where we are at, and how we need to head into the future.

Conundrum · **Joined:** Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:23 pm **Posts:** 436

I am interested in posters opinions as to whether the club would have taken the same tough approach in disciplining Fev had we not been languishing third last on the ladder and instead were sitting in eighth position in round 22. Do you think this club administration would take such a high moral ground? Would the temptation of finals action force us to set aside sanctioning our key matchwinner?

I say this because even Malthouse conceded he took into account the impact of such an ommission to the team and the disparity in sanctions between senior and junior players.

Also, I have no doubt that had not the AFL forced their hand, Cousins would not have missed a game this year. Such is the pressure faced by clubs in terms of achieving immediate success.

Conundrum

dannyboy · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:26 am

who knows?

we are third last

no where else

you can only make decisions based on that

the rest is idle chatter

or maybe

we are third last because we have not made these decisions

maybe we are third last because we are scared, or arrogant, or blaise

I mean

would Jezza have taken that mark if it was Moore and not Jenkins

bondiblue · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:27 am

Go Siegfried

bondiblue · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:31 am

Here's cheers BV, thanks for reminding us of where we're at.

kkk · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:57 am

Siegfried,

That is the best post I've read on this site.

Bravo.

kkk · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:00 am

Conundrum,

If we were eighth entering Round 22, Fev must have been playing well and doing his job, so the question wouldn't have arisen.

Jarusa · **Joined:** Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:00 am **Posts:** 23123

Good stuff everyone.

I may be interpreting things the wrong way but to me it involves the club returning to the pre-Elliot culture that it had.

Just from what I have learnt about the history of the club IMO the arrival of Elliot meant a huge change in culture for the club, a culture that had been successful for over 100 years. Before Elliot we were confident and professional and after Elliot arrived we have been arrogant and corrupt.

Conundrum · **Joined:** Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:23 pm **Posts:** 436

kkk wrote:

Conundrum,

If we were eighth entering Round 22, Fev must have been playing well and doing his job, so the question wouldn't have arisen.

I think you have missed the point. The sanctions applied to Fev were not in relation to his poor recent form, so the question can and will arise some time in the future.

Just to add to this discussion. Wallaby Lote Tuqiri has been suspended for two matches and fined twenty grand for getting drunk. Puts the AFL to shame as he will now misse the games against South Africa and New Zealand. Talk about developing a strong culture.

Collingwood's stance on Didak is being lambasted by the media/community and will not go away. They have taken a big hit in protecting their star player from being held accountable.

Well done Greg Swann and all those involved in the decision to suspend Fevola.

Conundrum

Siegfried · **Joined:** Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:30 pm **Posts:** 2862

It's a relevant question Conundrum. Malthouse did say that he had taken the players' ability into account with those decisions, and then at the end of the season, said that he had made a mistake.

Perhaps Swann has that in the back of his mind, given he was at Collingwood at the time?

And with Cousins, WC actually suspended him indefinitely before the AFL ever got involved, although no doubt it was a long time coming.

The landscape in AFL has changed over the last 12 months. In part because of the AFL getting tougher (mostly, clearly not in Didak's case), but clubs have now begun to realise that poor on- or off-field behaviour not only means poor performance by the player, but it has a significant effect on the culture, moral and performance of the club.

Think Steve Johnson, think Jeff Farmer...both suspened for 6 weeks by their clubs.

I think we will see more and more of this from now on, and Carlton's (and Geelong and Freo's) stand will just become the standard response for unaccetable player behaviour.

Elliot Legacy / Campo and how it has affected last 3 years

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