Our next coach?

Jarusa · **Joined:** Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:00 am **Posts:** 23123

dannyboy wrote:

Jarusa wrote:

Good get with Sheedy Seigfried! I like this place, you learn something new everyday. :wink:

wouldn't be hard for you, would it?

Live as if your were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever. - Gandhi

Sniff Wilson · **Posted:** Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:54 am

the voss interview on footy classified will be well and truly worth watching. i wouldnt be surprised if he has already been approached by the big dick, and has a "gentlemans agreement" to come to the blues in some capacity next year.

i just cant stop salivating thinking about the influence he would have on players like murphy, gibbs, blackwell, simpson and russell. the five guys who should be our midfield in our next flag.

Navy One · **Posted:** Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:59 am

Interesting article on Malthouse but more imporantlty talks about leadership, spirit etc ... he's the man delivering 'the message' as Synbad likes to put it.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,21961331%255E19742,00.html

tommi · **Posted:** Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:14 am

Jarusa wrote:

Live as if your were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever. - Gandhi

Niiiiice.............

that Gandhi dude ROCKS..............!

kindest regards tommi

you thought the grass was greener on the other side.....
but you forgot your heart was colour blind-tommi 94.................!

Siegfried · **Joined:** Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:30 pm **Posts:** 2862

Navy One wrote:

Interesting article on Malthouse but more imporantlty talks about leadership, spirit etc ... he's the man delivering 'the message' as Synbad likes to put it.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,21961331%255E19742,00.html

I was wrong on Malthouse, a couple of years ago, didn't give him much credit as a coach.

But when you overlook how much if a knob he can be in the media, and look at his coaching record, it's pretty amazing...

Got the Dogs into a Prelim in his second year, although they fell away after that.

Brilliant with West Coast, and what they achieved.

Got an average Collingwood side to two consective GFs, and is now rebuilding in a way that, quite frankly, is starting to worry me. Some of those kids that he is developing are going to be stars, and that's not including two first rounders from last year.

His preformances suggest he is as good a coach as is going around.

buzzaaaah · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:31 am **Posts:** 17892

While freezing my tits off at Auskick yesterday am, I decided to sit n the car and get some respite. On SEN, Keka was asking John Elliot whether Pagan would coach Carlton next year. Elliot said I'd rather not answer that, Carlton will sort it out at the end of the year. Read between the lines, he has been told not to speculate publicly about Carlton matters.
Keka then said "Surely you know something" to which Big Jack replied "I've got a fair idea"

Mickstar · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 7153

thedominator wrote:

Indie sorry but I agree with nightcrawler. Guys like Buckley, Hird and Voss have already the experience required ar at least any that would be got from an assistant's role. I think those who are going down the "need one or two years in an assistant's role" are those who are afraid to take bold decisions. The Carlton footy club in its heyday was all about making headlines and taking bold decisions based on instinct not fearful reactions based on the mistakes of others. What you fear is what you attract.
I say to Dick Pratt and Gregg Swann. Take the bull by the horns follow your gut and go forward with confidence. The background (i.e. Financial situation and club facilities and resources) is just about in place. The tools of the trade (i.e. the players) are almost in place. What is still in disarray IMO is the foreground (i.e. The Coach and his assistants). This is where the focus needs to be.

Another sensible man.No guts,no glory.

Siegfried · **Joined:** Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:30 pm **Posts:** 2862

Mickstar wrote:

thedominator wrote:

Indie sorry but I agree with nightcrawler. Guys like Buckley, Hird and Voss have already the experience required ar at least any that would be got from an assistant's role. I think those who are going down the "need one or two years in an assistant's role" are those who are afraid to take bold decisions. The Carlton footy club in its heyday was all about making headlines and taking bold decisions based on instinct not fearful reactions based on the mistakes of others. What you fear is what you attract.
I say to Dick Pratt and Gregg Swann. Take the bull by the horns follow your gut and go forward with confidence. The background (i.e. Financial situation and club facilities and resources) is just about in place. The tools of the trade (i.e. the players) are almost in place. What is still in disarray IMO is the foreground (i.e. The Coach and his assistants). This is where the focus needs to be.

Another sensible man.No guts,no glory.

There is no doubt that we need a change of coach...that is the guts, IMHO.

However, the choice of coach is such a vital decision, given what has happened over the last 6 years (and 16 years, if you count the last 10 years of Elliott's reign, and how the Club off-field slid into the quagmire).

We have been falling behind, whilst many other clubs have been forging ahead. We are in a position finally to have some considerable talent. The appointment of our next coach will make or break us for the next 10 years, and beyond. If we pick the wrong person, and he fails to develop these kids, and the team, we won't win a flag for 20 years.

Yes, we have to be gutsy...it's time to move Pagan on. We wear the cost, make the hard call. But we simply MUST get the right person in. This is not about taking a risk, being gutsy, and going for glory, because we can't afford the face plant if we get it wrong. It's about looking at ALL the options - current senior coaches, current assitants, and the untrieds - selecting the best 4 or 5 of those, interviewing and assessing them, and finding the coach that is MOST LIKELY to give us success, and IMHO, without risk of failure.

We just have to get this appointment right, we cannot take any SIGNIFICANT risk with it (all appointments will have some risk attached).

gerry atric · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:35 am **Posts:** 2125

Quote:

There is no doubt that we need a change of coach...that is the guts, IMHO.

However, the choice of coach is such a vital decision, given what has happened over the last 6 years (and 16 years, if you count the last 10 years of Elliott's reign, and how the Club off-field slid into the quagmire).

We have been falling behind, whilst many other clubs have been forging ahead. We are in a position finally to have some considerable talent. The appointment of our next coach will make or break us for the next 10 years, and beyond. If we pick the wrong person, and he fails to develop these kids, and the team, we won't win a flag for 20 years.

Yes, we have to be gutsy...it's time to move Pagan on. We wear the cost, make the hard call. But we simply MUST get the right person in. This is not about taking a risk, being gutsy, and going for glory, because we can't afford the face plant if we get it wrong. It's about looking at ALL the options - current senior coaches, current assitants, and the untrieds - selecting the best 4 or 5 of those, interviewing and assessing them, and finding the coach that is MOST LIKELY to give us success, and IMHO, without risk of failure.

We just have to get this appointment right, we cannot take any SIGNIFICANT risk with it (all appointments will have some risk attached).

Absolutely agree Sigfried. It is not about 'no guts no glory' if that means appointing Voss because he could play footy really well. His claim that he can walk stright into coaching whereas none of the current coaches have (apart from Sheeds 100 years ago) by some may bespoke boldness and self belief, to others it may indicate the sort of arrogance that indicates inadequate self awareness. Being bold is not doing the Carlton thing of getting a big name, it is getting the best even if they are not a big name. Just remind me again why Vossy is automatically a better coach than Chris Bond? Vossy has the same qualifications for coaching as Sticks, except Sticks has been involved with the match committee for a number of years. Sticks for coach anyone?
If Vossy wants to be coach he is welcome to apply for the job and present with the rest of the candidates. Pratt's appointments have been for people who have proved they are outstanding at what they do - Swann taking on same role he's done at C'Wood and S.Icke for Freeo.
We want a coach not a player. Vossy's record as a coach at any level is on a par with mine.

camel · **Posted:** Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:19 pm

How do you know who is the right person?

Can that really, genuinely, be quantified without two or three years at the helm?

camel · **Posted:** Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:23 pm

gerry atric wrote:

Quote:

There is no doubt that we need a change of coach...that is the guts, IMHO.

However, the choice of coach is such a vital decision, given what has happened over the last 6 years (and 16 years, if you count the last 10 years of Elliott's reign, and how the Club off-field slid into the quagmire).

We have been falling behind, whilst many other clubs have been forging ahead. We are in a position finally to have some considerable talent. The appointment of our next coach will make or break us for the next 10 years, and beyond. If we pick the wrong person, and he fails to develop these kids, and the team, we won't win a flag for 20 years.

Yes, we have to be gutsy...it's time to move Pagan on. We wear the cost, make the hard call. But we simply MUST get the right person in. This is not about taking a risk, being gutsy, and going for glory, because we can't afford the face plant if we get it wrong. It's about looking at ALL the options - current senior coaches, current assitants, and the untrieds - selecting the best 4 or 5 of those, interviewing and assessing them, and finding the coach that is MOST LIKELY to give us success, and IMHO, without risk of failure.

We just have to get this appointment right, we cannot take any SIGNIFICANT risk with it (all appointments will have some risk attached).

Absolutely agree Sigfried. It is not about 'no guts no glory' if that means appointing Voss because he could play footy really well. His claim that he can walk stright into coaching whereas none of the current coaches have (apart from Sheeds 100 years ago) by some may bespoke boldness and self belief, to others it may indicate the sort of arrogance that indicates inadequate self awareness. Being bold is not doing the Carlton thing of getting a big name, it is getting the best even if they are not a big name. Just remind me again why Vossy is automatically a better coach than Chris Bond? Vossy has the same qualifications for coaching as Sticks, except Sticks has been involved with the match committee for a number of years. Sticks for coach anyone?
If Vossy wants to be coach he is welcome to apply for the job and present with the rest of the candidates. Pratt's appointments have been for people who have proved they are outstanding at what they do - Swann taking on same role he's done at C'Wood and S.Icke for Freeo.
We want a coach not a player. Vossy's record as a coach at any level is on a par with mine.

There are many, myself included, that believe Sticks should not be on the match committee any longer. He is the only constant from Elliott-Collo-Smorgon-Pratt. How he has continued to be held unaccountable for his roles during these times is astounding.

For all of the things his supporters will reply with, I suggest he could do all of those things while not holding a position on the MC. He has club ambassador/mentor written all over him. Nobody is denying his greatness or loyalty to Carlton, I'm just not 100% sure we are using him in the best way possible.

gerry atric · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:35 am **Posts:** 2125

Quote:

How do you know who is the right person?

Can that really, genuinely, be quantified without two or three years at the helm?

Obviously it is a matter for judgement, but if someone has been an assistant for several years it gives you something to base your decision on. Also if you have an exhaustive selection process you will be in a position to make a more informed judgement. We need to take as much guesswork out of it as possible. Not infallible but more so than just appointing someone because they were a great captain in a great side. We need to get beyond the Cain Acland selection process of sign up and then hope. We need to make our decisoons based on the most extensive info rather than the least as we seem to.

gerry atric · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:35 am **Posts:** 2125

Quote:

Vossy has the same qualifications for coaching as Sticks, except Sticks has been involved with the match committee for a number of years. Sticks for coach anyone?

Actually CB, this was meant in jest. I don't think Sticks would be a good coach and think his role with the footy side of things needs to be reduced, but his quals - great captain and player are similar to Voss. Voss needs to be more than just a great ex player to qualify as a coach.

camel · **Posted:** Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:32 pm

gerry atric wrote:

Quote:

How do you know who is the right person?

Can that really, genuinely, be quantified without two or three years at the helm?

Obviously it is a matter for judgement, but if someone has been an assistant for several years it gives you something to base your decision on. Also if you have an exhaustive selection process you will be in a position to make a more informed judgement. We need to take as much guesswork out of it as possible. Not infallible but more so than just appointing someone because they were a great captain in a great side. We need to get beyond the Cain Acland selection process of sign up and then hope. We need to make our decisoons based on the most extensive info rather than the least as we seem to.

So, if Voss, for example, were to apply for the position of coach does anyone really think the current hierachy of the club would just shut up shop, immediately make Voss the boss, and stop taking applications?

Alternatively, if the club approached Voss first, without officially declaring the position of coach vacant, do you reckon the current hierachy of the club would just do so on the basis that "yeah, nah, he could play a bit", rather than having the suggested internal discussion/debate on the merits of taking such an approach?

Most have just espoused the merits of our current administration, yet seem to dismiss that belief and trust in their abilities as soon as the suggestion of appointing an "untried" coach is discussed.

Either Pratt, Swann et al know what they are doing, or they don't.

So far, so good. :-D

camel · **Posted:** Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:40 pm

gerry atric wrote:

Quote:

Vossy has the same qualifications for coaching as Sticks, except Sticks has been involved with the match committee for a number of years. Sticks for coach anyone?

Actually CB, this was meant in jest. I don't think Sticks would be a good coach and think his role with the footy side of things needs to be reduced, but his quals - great captain and player are similar to Voss. Voss needs to be more than just a great ex player to qualify as a coach.

Yeah, I got that, but there is probably a reason that Voss is talked about as coaching material and, to the best of my knowledge, Sticks never was/has. One, straight off the bat, is declared ambition to be a senior coach. On top of that, while the greatness of both guys as players is undisputed, I think there's a subtle difference between the two that, to me anyway, indicates Voss has qualities that make him, possibly, more suitable as a coach when compared to Sticks.

If you were to put me on the spot and ask me to quantify them, to be honest, I couldn't come back with much more than "yeah, nah he could play a bit" :lol:

... but, that's why I'm behind this keyboard and not employed at Royal Parade.

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 17937

Appointing the appropriate panel to interview the interested parties will be the crucial element.

Following that, the applicants can come along and present their case.
If, Voss applies for example, I'd expect him to sell himself as the right person.
I'd expect him to have a thorough knowledge of the Carlton list and what their strengths and weaknesses are.
I'd expect him to have an opinion on the current state of Carltons list structurally and how it impacts on the way we play the game. I'd also expect him to explain how he would remedy our list imbalance.

I'd expect him to explain how the game is currently played and coached from a tactical perspective and expect him to have a grasp on where the game is heading in the next 3 years.
I'd expect him to describe the coaching structure he would be implementing including examples of assistants and what roles they would be filling.
I'd expect a short term and long term plan for the team and want examples of how he is going to implement those plans.

I would want the prospective candidate to give a full and frank assessment of what their strengths and weaknesses are and what areas they need to improve in.
If they cannot be honest in this appraisal, I wouldnt let them past first base. No one in AFL football is close to knowing everything and anyone who believes they have all their bases covered completely is not the person I'd want.

Give me someone with a solid grasp of the game, a strong belief in their abilities, an inclusive attitude and a hunger to learn and I'll be happy.

gerry atric · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:35 am **Posts:** 2125

Quote:

Most have just espoused the merits of our current administration, yet seem to dismiss that belief and trust in their abilities as soon as the suggestion of appointing an "untried" coach is discussed.

That's true CB, but the most recent coup regarding the footy team was the inspired choice of C Acland. I'd suggest that involved no thought at all. I know that was before Swann and Icke, but Pratt still indicates he will defer to Sticks re footy matters. Lets hope the board as a whole don't stand for that. This is one appointment we have to get absolutely right, and we have to give ourselves the best chance to make the best decision.

I personally don't reckon Voss will be a great coach, but I've been wrong many times before and will be happily proved wrong if Voss does become coach. I trust we will put a lot more thought into it than we did into recruiting Acland, but the people who recruited Acland are still there and still have a say.

PS What ever happened to MArcus Clarke and his cohorts who ran a ticket saying Sticks should have a reduced role. Maybe they need to deliver or explain why there publicly stated policy has been abandoned.

dane · **Joined:** Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:14 am **Posts:** 22357

just thought i'd add...

pagan is done. NEXT.

camel · **Posted:** Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:07 pm

gerry atric wrote:

Quote:

Most have just espoused the merits of our current administration, yet seem to dismiss that belief and trust in their abilities as soon as the suggestion of appointing an "untried" coach is discussed.

That's true CB, but the most recent coup regarding the footy team was the inspired choice of C Acland. I'd suggest that involved no thought at all. I know that was before Swann and Icke, but Pratt still indicates he will defer to Sticks re footy matters. Lets hope the board as a whole don't stand for that. This is one appointment we have to get absolutely right, and we have to give ourselves the best chance to make the best decision.

I personally don't reckon Voss will be a great coach, but I've been wrong many times before and will be happily proved wrong if Voss does become coach. I trust we will put a lot more thought into it than we did into recruiting Acland, but the people who recruited Acland are still there and still have a say.

PS What ever happened to MArcus Clarke and his cohorts who ran a ticket saying Sticks should have a reduced role. Maybe they need to deliver or explain why there publicly stated policy has been abandoned.

I think you're reading a Melways, and I'm reading a UBD, but we're both heading to the same destination.

camel · **Posted:** Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:17 pm

Indie wrote:

....Appointing Buckley, Voss, or Hird would be reckless. You wouldn't leave your money to be administered by a Funds manager who took such chances, so you shouldn't be calling for such a decision when it so dramatically influences the health of our club...

Taken from the article linked earlier about Malthouse:

Quote:

There are other components that make a football club, such as talent, leadership and stability, but without spirit those three cannot function properly.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/ ... 42,00.html

Spirit is why it is utlimately futile to compare big business with football clubs. Yes, there are indeed many aspects from business that can lead to a great and successful footy club, but ultimately a football club is as far removed from the big end of town as can be. They're just two different beasts that exist for two completely different purposes.

Our next coach?

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