Sticks blew that out of the water by reappointing Mitchell last year.

He was supposed to be the player development guy as well as the Bullants' Coach, but blind Freddie could have seen that he was never going to be in a position to fulfil that role.

So now Mitchell's being paid $150K or more to sit on his ar$e at Cramer Street. The money could have been used to employ a youth development coach who could have worked as part of our football department as well as coaching the Bullants.

Instead, Icke and Ashman assume the role of player liaison.

Terrible administration that ...

I reckon we have terrific coaches in Braddles Crosisca Ratts & Mitchell.

It's the confusing 'message' from the head coach that's the problem...

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There's so much I could say...

Can't agree with the extremes you just placed on everything there.

It has been a while since we've taken a ruckman, but I prefer to draw a line on the 2002 national draft and work from there onwards, as would anyone.

I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't start taking those list structure analysis power-lunches you're talking about seriously until say, last year?

I could see how it would have worked 2002 - 2005...

Pagan: G'Day boys, let's run through this shall we... I've identified weaknesses up forward, in the ruck, through the middle and down back. What say you gentlemen?

Everyone else: Agreed.

Pagan: Meeting adjourned.

By the way I wrote that at 3 am on a Saturday night... do the math.

Should read:

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

You know what is ironic about this

Pagan puts so much emphasis in teaching our young talent the defensive side of the game and the one part that Carlton really sucks at is the defensive side of the game

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

That would be so @#$%&! hilarious if it wasn't so true!

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

Re: playing players in the back pocket - Gibbs was a ready made player with flair - much like Thomas. Thomas has never played game after game in the back pocket. Sure, put Gibbs in the back pocket if there is a certain job, but i think it keeps the opposition guessing to give him roles in the midfield too.



Can you name Gibbs's most inspirational moment of the year so far?

For me, it was the goal he kicked on the run against Richmond, closely followed by his blind handpass to Waite in the goalsquare.


They were inspirational/ team lifting moments...

being in the back pocket shepharding and tackling and chasing isn't the type of inspiration i want to see from Gibbs.


Call me crazy... but i believe he is good enough to play in more positions than just the back pocket for games on end.


Re: Chip Le Grand's comments that is in regards to juniors in general.



Gibbs played senior footy for glenelg for crumbs sake, he had played midfield/hff etc.. i bet you any money that if Malthouse had Gibbs he wouldn't be playing him in the back pocket game after game.

If i had a choice i think Denis Pagan should not coach Carlton if he failed to win at least 8 games minimum and if we have a Stand Alone team next year a new coach also.

1979, as you say my reference to Chip Le Grand's comments are of general application. They don't spply greatly to Gibbs.

Not that Gibbs won't learn some useful lessons by being played in defence. Defence in AFl is a lot more demanding than SANFL.

But the main reason for Gibbs being played in defence is to allow a bottom-aged player to make a smooth transition into AFL footy.

You make the comment that Malthouse wouldn't have done the same. Probably not if you look at Pendlebury as an example. Here we have a youngster who was taken with a high draft-pick and who's now favourite for the Rising Star Award. But Matlhouse DID NOT PLAY HIM UNTIL ROUND 10 IN HIS DEBUT SEASON!!!!!

Go back and review Gibb's games in the NAB Cup, and in the H&A season. He was nowhere near as confident as he is now. Look at the comments by posters about his early performances. Look at his own comments about his early games. He repeatedly stated that he was struggling to get used to the fast tempo of AFL footy.

You might think that he would have excelled if he'd been thrown into the midfield or up forward. You might think he'd be just as advanced as he is now, or maybe even more advanced. But that's supposition.

I'd say that Pagan has done pretty well to play him in the seniors while allowing him to work his way into the game slowly.

It certainly didn't hurt that we were able to use his compusure and disposal skills down back while he adjusted to AFL footy.

Indie, I appreciate your response. It is a well measured and articulate response. However, I accept that Gibbs is finding his feet, that is not a problem - each kid progresses at a different rate. What I am saying is that he shouldn't be fixed into a back pocket position. Some times match ups might be better for him hff or wing or wherever. He is a talent - let's be flexible with him.


As a matter of interest - do you have statistics on Dale Thomas as well?


I don' have them handy, but i would be surprised if he was back pocket for over 8 games in a row.

Thomas played 16 games, but I don't have the detail as to where. But IIRC, he wouldn't have had any defensive roles. He would have played midfield or as a small forward. But that isn't a surprise for a player of his size and style. The same thing went for Marc Murphy - I don't think he had any defensive roles in his first year.

Remember that Collingwoood has good stocks of small defenders and small forwards. The 2 Shaws, Didak and Neon Leon will usually take those roles, and they've got other experienced players such as Lockyer to switch as needed. Introducing new players through a midfield rotation is probably more to do with fitting in with the team's structure as it is about development.

But when you look at us, we have a dearth of small forwards and defenders. Anderson getting injured was a tragedy as he is about our only specialist small defender. It would have been good to see him relieve Gibbs in the 2nd half of the season.

Gibbs is our best accountable small defender. The Age article today suggests that he's conceded 13 goals in 12 games to put him at the top of our defence. The other 2 regular small defenders - Scotto and Hoops - are loose rebounding types.

Ideally, we'd have Gibbs off a half-back flank. Firstly, the problem is that the opposition may well drag him back to the fullforward line to limit his involvement and his ability to be a quarterback type with his precise disposal. Second, his ability to play one-on-one is best utilised on the most dangerous goal-kicking small who naturally enough tends to play closer to goal.

I'd like to see more of Gibbs in other roles in the 2nd half of the year. But to allow that to happen, another tight small defender needs to step up quickly. It's not such a bad thing that Gibbs has made himself indispensable as a small defender. He'll have plenty of time to gain that status in other roles.

I don't see this as a Pagan V mitchell argument.

Neither should be there next year. Mitchell definitely shouldn't be there now.

Fact remains our development of draftees under his management has been lacking.

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T E A M

Indie, another good post and I agree with a lot of what you were saying, but if we had been developing youngsters like Bower and Action Jackson with more senior experience we would have been in a far better position to free up Gibbs for other roles. I know Jackson is injured now, but the fact that we have delayed their developed has a domino effect on other decisions.

Even if they popped Russell in defence more often it would have freed up Gibbs for other roles.

The fact is that Leigh Matthews and Mick Malthouse would surely not have left Gibbs in the back pocket for so long - even with our list - if they were coaching.