This topic is interwoven with the tanking issue, isn't it?

Those who believe that Lance is a liability should be splitting into 2 groups - those who want him stood down to give someone else a go, thereby lifting our team performance, and those who want him to be retained so that our team is less likely to win.

Again, those who believe that Lance isn't a liability, either in the short term or if he has a rest, should be splitting into 2 camps - those who want him to continue to help us win, and those who want him dumped to help kill off our chances of further wins.

But the oddity is that this isn't happening.

If Whitnall's lack of run and fitness is forcing others to try to cover for him on the field, wouldn't we stand more chance of winning if someone like JK or Bower or Edwards replaces him? And would that be a good thing?

I don't think so, Indie. I saw the Dogs game and although Lance didn't have a day out, he did things that were typically Lance. He passed to Waite and Fev to set up goals that very few could pull off, as well as kicking a few himself. He's equal 3rd in our goal kicking despite spending much time in defence.

If Hartlett or Kennedy could produce what Lance does I'd be ecstatic, but I'm sure they couldn't just yet. That's not to say they shouldn't be given the opportunity, just that I don't believe we'd be better off for having Lance out of the side.

If Lance's knee is that bad it probably means his time is up. Has excellent smarts so I wouldn't mind him as an assistant coach with our forward line next year. Kouta may or may not retire, don't care either way on that one. He's still showing some value. Lappin, I believe, could play good footy until he's 35. Those wiry types don't seem to get injured. He has good skills and is capable of kicking alot of goals up forward. I think he's demostrated that a number of times. He has plenty still to offer. He'll play alot better, and in consistently more committed fashion, under another coiach. Would be nice to see him consistently produce his best for Carlton rather than for Sheedy during the International Rules Series, where he always seem to play terrificly.

Skinny is a FP...not a BP...could play a few more years as a goal sneak.

Enough said DP!

Lance thinks footy, but I dont know if he can speak it

Kouta needs to help Ang at the Souva shop...

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They coud'nt.....could they?

If only we could persuade the AFL to play International RUles instead of AFL, then Skinny will be fantastic. The only problem is that he's not a crumbing forward now - he's a 4th or 5th "tall" who can take a good mark inside 50. Particularly if Lance screens and blocks for him. But he has lost a yard and isn't so good at bursting through defences - he's more likely to play it safe and double back away from goal to find space. His efforts at running goals, let alone playing front-and-square and kicking snaps across his body, aren't up to scratch e.g. the game against Hawthorn.

He gives us very little defensive pressure in F50, and his tackling is ordinary to say the least. He isn't a FP - he's a HFF at best. And he's nowhere near as good as Fisher in that role.

He used to be creative off a half-back, but he's now less able in that role and we have better options.

Disagree

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They coud'nt.....could they?

Skinny will be erratic as the sun goes down on his career but he is still a handy footballer if managed correctly.
Hes a forward as is Houla.

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I reckon to play International Rules well you need to have some pretty decent run in you. I think he's perfect for both FP and HFF. I think we've seen enough goals from him to know he could be very handy for a few more years yet. Last thing this club needs to do is retire experienced players who still have plenty to offer. You assume Kouta will retire and Lance's knee won't hold up anymore so let's not unnecesarily retire any more experience.

A great article by Jake Niall (almost an epitaph) and a good read since he's showing Lance more respect than some Carlton supporters who posted in this thread. The game appears to have passed Lance by and we might need to move on at the end of the year for the good of the club. Yet I still swore when I read the title because Lance was a very good footballer and he will be missed.

[url=http://realfooty.com.au/news/news/whitnall-at-the-crossroads/2007/06/20/1182019200968.html]Whitnall at the crossroads
[/url]

No, it looks good. The only umbrage I would take with your last post is that Fev can play CHF if necessary because he is mobile, has a solid defensive mindset (now) and can kick the footy. So he has 2 positions. The others don't really count.
Lance can no longer play CHF because opposition CHB just run off him and expose his lack of pace. Therefore if weare to keep him, I think he has to play on the FF line, maybe even a FP because, despite his lack of pace he is actually not bad below his knees and can crumb a bit because of it. Fev may have to move out to CHF. If we get your stats from that, it would be fine with me.

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Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

from today's article in the age

"Carlton's forward line contains Brendan Fevola and, after Denis Pagan experimented with Jarrad Waite in defence, the son of Vinny has returned to his natural habitat in the forward line. Waite is on the crest of becoming an A grade forward — and could even be a prospective captain. Josh Kennedy, meanwhile, is slated to be the other tall forward and needs ground time. Kennedy does not appear capable of filling a defensive position, and the Blues have no need for four tall forwards."

How is he showing him respect when he is saying he doesnt work enough to maintain his body with any professionalism???
Football isnt about amateurish preperation.

Amateurish preparation is what Lance has been all about and that can rub off to others around him .
He is a glaring example of what we dont need if were to improve.
At the beginning of lat season Lance told us its alright if theyre overweight before Xmas as he will peak for the football calender..does Lance think he has the capability to pick and choose when to be fit???

Football is beyond unprofessionalism. He belongs to another era.
If you think he has been strugglling till now.. wait till next year if hes still around....

GONE!

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Synners, you have been saying Lance is 'gone' for so long now, that the bottle of wine you put away to celebrate his leaving will be a very nice vintage by the time he goes.

Personally I would rather see Lance retire than go to another club. At 28 he maybe considered to old by some.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

I have to agree with Synners on the part about Lance and his professionalism.

For too long he has allowed himself to imbide on food and drink that he cannot afford to touch.

Unfortunately for Lance he figured that the value of his football brain would see him thru skin folds and fronting up to pre-season overweight.

In all his visits to the health farms and with all the nutritional information available to him at the club, he still does not get it and that to me says he doesn't treat his football and the money that comes with that, with any respect.

Take this scenario - why would a Nick Stevens or a Fev or a GIBBS have any concerns with fronting up to pre-season overweight when the captain has been getting away with it for most, if not all of his career?

He does not lead by example and for my mind he is guilty of being incredibly stupid for continually repeating the same basic errors with his fitness. He should not have been rewarded with the captaincy for that reason alone.

Football brain or no football brain, he will always be remebered as a player who had potential to be great, but always let himself down with his lack of attention to his fitness, which had total control over.

Great article by Niall - definite epitaph.

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

Football is a brutally harsh industry. If you're of no further worth to a club then they will cut you loose without blinking an eye. Lance is in real peril of reaching this stage, particularly with a degenerative knee injury. There comes a time when sentiment needs to be put aside for the betterment of the club, and with Lance it appears to me that that time is sooner rather than later. He was a great servant for the club, and was one of my favourites for several years but the reality is that an AFL club can't afford to carry anyone for whatever reason, whether that be a first year player or 150 game captain.
Bobbing up and kicking a couple of goals every couple of games isn't going to be enough to keep Lance in the team long term when his direct opponent is responsible for more going the other way.

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

The problem for Lance is that our forward line is becoming fairly mature. Granted, on the lower end of mature. But you look at Fev, Waite, Fish, Skinny, Wiggo, and Betts, and they're all now around 21 or greater with around 50 games or more to their credit.

They should now be able to organise themselves with the assistance of Crosisca. They shouldn't need to be directed by Lance.

Really, the only forwards who are wet behind the ears are JK and Harts. But he isn't really able to mentor them on the field. Instead, he steals game time from them.

He also hasn't been well served by the coaches' decision to go man-on-man in D50. There is far less sclope for a loose defender.

If he can come back from this, that would be heart-warming. But he's nearing the end of his career so the next few weeks will be useful in seeing how we will function without him.

Just on his metabolism... I think I have the same issue. I can snort calories just by smelling a donut...

But, over the last 2 years I've made a conscious effort to get fit and lose the kilos. I figure I want to be around when my son is old enough to be drafted and gets to play CHF for Carlton... in our 25th premiership side

I've lost it slowly 20kg over 2 years... my point being it IS hard the weight came off very slowly, I started off doing weights, then a little bit of running, and refining my diet.. raising the bar every few months... until now where I'm doing 8-12km road runs and hill training 2-3 days a week and finally cracked the 100kg barrier a few weeks ago (for the first time in over 10 years).

Its very very hard for someone like Lance and I. The thing thats really irks me.... is that I have a day job with pretty long hours, I also have a business I run in my spare time.

Lance earns what? $300k a year to keep fit. I would love a job like his... and I guarantee you I would have got fit a lot fitter and sooner if I was earning this sort of money.. and had nothing else to do... for crying out loud... get some definition in your body... hire a personal trainer once or twice a week or see a dietitian. You are an professional athlete you need to keep raising the bar until you get where you need to go.

Regardless of whether he's playing well or not or injured or not he owes to himself and to his employer to do what it takes to be in peak physical form and to keep raising the bar until he gets there.....

He's showing respect for his career and not going on and on about the negatives all the time.

Since Whitnall's senior teammates in Campo, Beaumont, Justin Murphy and Allan were also lazy SOBs and left for greener pastures when they didn't get what they want. The club's arrogance under Elliott and the "we're Carlton, @#$%&! the rest" attitude may have rubbed off on a young Whitnall who made an AA side at 21. Fevola's preparation was amateurish as well and Fev wasn't setting the world on fire either until Pagan arrived. Lance has to take the blame for not preparing himself for games the right way, but the club deserves a blackmark for not giving these players a good kick in the arse.

He is finished!
But he still owes it his family.
He is going to balloon.....

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