http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,21481876%255E19742,00.html

IIRC, he did said around the same time as that article that he went to the Board with 2 strategies - the one taken and one of retaining draft picks - and pointed out that the former strategy wouldn't be sustainable. The Board's concerns at the time were with the financial problems of the club, and if you recall Mathieson had advocated that we turn the keys to the club and wash our hands of the mess. The Board was obviously worried about a collapse in membership and the financial losses that and the loss of sponsorship would bring. The bit you quoted seems to be a pretty concise way of stating their concerns.

True, the board may well have been in favour.
I got the impression from your post that Collo instigated the idea to recruit recycled players and Denis was'nt in favour of it.
There is no proof of that.

Obviously by his admissions, Pagan believed the club was better off recruiting recycled players and whether it was his initiative or not, he fully supported it.



In my opinion, anyone who took part in that process and allowed it to transpire set our club back.
Pagan and Collins included.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

BV It is still going on

Last two years

Saddo - Maclaren - Ackland- Cloke


What I ant to know off Mav is what percentage (if any) in his mind have the onfields result been a direct result of Pagans influences and coaching technics- Or has every miserable result been the fault of someone else

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

As SB says, it's chicken and egg stuff. Did the Board make its position clear before or after Pagan presented to it? Was Pagan making a presentation tailored to those views? Collo was not like Smorgon and Pratt - he'd been in sports admin for a long time. He would have had his own ideas, and was never one to be trifled with.

Same thing will be playing out this year. Pratt has made it very clear he wants wins. Synbad says that he has been superseded by the appointment of Swann and Icke. But if they don't come out and announce that Carlton will be using the 2nd half of the year to blood youngsters regardless of the impact on the predictions of Pratt, then we have to assume that the goals set for Pagan and the team remain unchanged.

It would be plainly gutless for Pagan to be asked to tank without making the sorts of noises in public that everyone will know means we are tanking.

No doubt if we win again this year, and especially if we win a few, there'll be those who make the claim that Pagan thereby set the club back. But I reckon the coach is entitled to work towards the goals set for him.

Whoops posted twice

I don't like recruiting from other clubs. But I see the 2003 draft actions as being justifiable. We got Walks at 2 I think our next pixk was 35 which we swapped for Scotto. The player the Pies drafted has been delisted so that is a win.

The rest of the picks from memory were 50+ and I think most of them were after almost every other side had stopped drafting indicating that most recruiters considered pickings pretty thin. The main one we missed was Ben Hudson. I'd love someone with his grunt now. But he had been overlooked in several drafts. Tuck and Raines were the other notables we could have had, tho few others rated them, both being overlooked as father son selections. Raines has gone backwards this year and Tuck is a battler, we have several of those.

In the end we were in extreme circumstances and maybe the recycles saved the club in that the performance in 04 and the 05 Wiz and record membership kept the debtors at bay. I doubt we'd be much better if we'd used all our picks on 18 year olds that year.

The other arguement is that if we had been at the bottom in 04 we might have got Franklin and Deledio. Would that mean that we would have missed Murphy and Gibbs? Would Franklin and Deledio won us a few more games? We lost a few close ones in 05 and 06. Those two might have got us over the line and cost us #1 and PPs

I'd be more concerned about selecting Longmuir and Chambers. They did nothing. At least with Morrell and Bowyer and Johnson and McGrath and Teague we got grunt and good example. And we got what we thought we were getting. Whatever Chambers had to offer should have been obvious after 6 years in the system. What we got was a great athlete with a great attitude but not a footballer.

Still the recruiting that killed us was in the mid late 90s when we gave up decent oicks for hacks, instead of 50s, 60s or 70s picks. Hopefully we have finally learned our lesson and will develop our own players. We have had the draft picks over the last few years and will again this year to assemble a really talented side. There should be no excuses if we are not contenders in a few years.

Got to say Indie, you are unwavering in your support for DP. I'm not a Pagan hater but I'd be happy enough with a PP this year and a new coach rather than 8 wins and DP retained. What would shake your faith in the great man?

In 02 we took Kade Simpson at 45 and Brad Fisher at 72 which clearly indicates that quality kids can be taken by clubs willing to take a punt.

As for Shane Tuck, dont underestimate his ability. He has been playing with an ankle complaint that would keep most players sidelined. He is recieving jabs before every game and cant get out on the track.
He is a quality player.
Like Andrew Raines, he was a quality draft selection.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Make no mistake, Gerry, if Pagan is sacked, then my attitude will be "The King is dead, long live the King". All of my support will be transferred to whoever replaces him.

If we get a priority pick, well and good. But if we win and lose them, such is life.

But it is only fair if the powers-that-be at Carlton make it clear what their expectations are for the 2nd half of the year. If they don't do anything to soften the benchmark set by Pratt, then they and the public can hardly complain if we try to achieve them.

As for the level of debate, unfortunately there's been a tendency towards polarisation. That is unfortunate as more reasonable discussions aren't possible. But I've learnt that there's not much point trying to engage in reasonable debate unless there's some goodwill. An example of that is the repetitious claim that Pagan won't admit errors. That claim seems to carry the implication that if he did so, that somehow that would mollify his critics. But then when he makes general statements as he did recently that he has learnt a lot by coming to a club down the bottom and he's a better coach for it, those comments are misrepresented as him confessing to total ineptitude. They are seen as ammunition to shoot him down in flames. Even though they don't even amount to that. As with political debate, you have to keep "on message".

It's just the way it is - I'm involved in an adversarial debate and the same sort of rules apply as in political debates. That's not my ideal, but I adjust to the reality.

I'd add Karl Norman in there BV. I reckon he had All Aust talent, and despite his waywardness I think he was easily led rather than bad and I hoped we might have given him another chance. Still I don't reckon we missed a Simmo or Fish in the 03 draft. And while we might be better with Tuck or Raines, neither Hawks nor Tiges rated them worthy of f/s pick. Tho Raines might be the small defender we are looking for. Still whatever we missed in 03 draft we can just add to ten years of draft crimes. What is crucial is that we got the 04/05/06 drafts right and will again in 07. Coming from where we are we need to do better than all the other clubs in the draft. Time will tell

Have a look at the Tanking thread BV. The impact of low versus high picks has been argued to death in that thread. Those who now want tanking take the view that the extra quality that high picks bring dramatically exceeds that offered by picks at the end of the draft. There should be some level of consistency here - a recognition that our position then was that we were forced into speculative draft territory.

Of course you can get good players down the bottom of the draft. But they generally are seen as deficient in one or more areas so that a lot of development is required. Simpson didn't have much impact for a number of years, and Fisher's kicking was initially a liability. Norman was a good pick too, but his dedication to football was his deficiency and eventually we had to delist him without any return.

Raines would have been a good pick, but for us we would have been throwing a dart in the dark if we'd picked him. Richmond had the inside running as his old man would have been keeping them well-advised about his progress.

That's where the poorly-resourced recruiting department comes in. There is much discussion now about the advantage that the interstate clubs have in drafting those within their states as they have very extensive recruiting networks, and they have the money to be strong on the ground in Victoria as well. Collingwood is now matching that benchmark. Was the recruiting setup back in 2003 anywhere near as developed? I doubt it. It's fine taking shots in the dark late in the draft, but if your recruiting network is substandard then you're not going to have much luck.

I'd say that Wayne Hughes is much better than Seagull. And Wayne Hughes with good resources is better than without.

It was hardly a surprise that the Pies were able to pull Rusling out of the obscurity of local SA footy. It would have been a shock if we'd done so.

About the only smokie that Hughes has flirted with is Gwilt, and then that was only because he had an association with Noble Park Footy Club.

Maybe Norman was there for the taking because of his waywardness. Talent alone isnt enough so he's not the best example.

Agree with your other point. Its easy to pick the 2 quality players after pick 50 but look at the others around them. There's nothing to say carlton would have picked either of those 2

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T E A M

No. 7 Ratten B&F in a Premiership year ... well worth a go ... the bridge between No. 16 and No.17 (just call me a born romantic)

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NG
S M C , S F L

Ben Hudson? Sam Fisher? Amon Buchanan? Michael Pettigrew? Michael Rischitelli? Jacob Surjan? Aaron Davey? Adam Hartlett? Matthew Egan?

None of those available players take your fancy hey Buzz?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

.... not that there is anything wrong with that.

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If I admit that I didnt check, would that get me off the hook. 1/2 those players weren't after 50 though.

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T E A M

For the record here's the picks from 35 which we swapped for Scotland. We were excluded from the first two rounds:
Didn't realise Rischitelli was in this draft and Raines was a bit of a steal, but we might have drafted the guys on this list who have gone nowhere. Hudson is an interseting one starting his career at 24, so been overlooked many times. We chose ADL from the VFL that year and Bryan the next. Wish we'd gone for Hudson. Still restrospective recruiting is pretty easy.

Round 3 35 Collingwood BRENT HALL SOUTH FREMANTLE (WAFL) 7/01/1986 198.2 94.7 Tall, inside ruckman with terrific athletic ability and courage. Good below his knees for a tall player. Vice Captain of the WA u18 Championship team in 2003. AIS/AFL Academy in 2003. From Williams F.C.
Round 3 36 Melbourne CHRISTOPHER JOHNSON EAST FREMANTLE (WAFL) 25/01/1986
Round 3 37 Richmond TOM ROACH OAKLEIGH CHARGERS 2/09/1985
Round 3 38 Geelong MARK BLAKE GEELONG FALCONS 9/09/1985 198 94 Developing ruckman who has been hampered by injury this year but represented Vic Country in National AFL U18s showing promise. Had 19 tap outs in game two and 23 in game three of the Championships showing his ability at clearances.
Round 3 39 Port Adelaide ROBERT FORSTER-KNIGHT Essendon* 6/04/1982
Round 3 40 Kangaroos EDWARD SANSBURY CENTRAL DISTRICTS 26/11/1983 179 78 Small forward who kicked 5 goals in SANFL Grand Final – very quick and elusive.
Round 3 41 Hawthorn ZAC DAWSON CALDER CANNONS 22/02/1986 195.4 78.8 Tall, inside ruckman who covers the ground well and has good skills. Intelligent footballer who was a member of Cannons in 2003 premiership side. He is a student at Penleigh and Essendon* Grammar.
Round 3 42 Geelong MATTHEW SPENCER SWAN DISTRICTS (WAFL) 17/01/1985 194.6 89.2 Tall, inside forward who has strength and stamina. Good overhead mark, fantastic competitor, and shows leadership qualities. Has courage. Captain of the WA u18 side this year. From Trinity College.
Round 3 43 Fremantle BRETT PEAKE EAST FREMANTLE (WAFL) 5/07/1983 183 80 Super competitive midfielder with good defensive skills and speed. Played every game for East Fremantle seniors this year and continued to improve. Father Brian played for Geelong and was a WA champion.
Round 3 44 Essendon* RICKY DYSON NORTHERN KNIGHTS 28/09/1985 182.6 71.2 Medium, outside forward/midfielder with pace. Penetrating left foot kick who is dangerous from outside 50. Has leadership qualities and sets example through high work ethic. AIS-AFL Academy in 2002. All-Australian U/18 in 2003. Was in the top 10% for agility and shuttle run at the 2003 National Draft camp. From Epping FC. Year 12 student at Parade College Bundoora.
Round 3 45 Sydney AMON BUCHANAN SYDNEY 10/10/1982
Round 3 46 Port Adelaide MICHAEL PETTIGREW WEST PERTH (WAFL) 16/03/1985 192.7 80 Tall, outside defender or forward who has good agility and speed for his size. Excellent recovery and great below the knees. AIS-AFL Academy member in 2002. Recorded the fastest times in all sprint tests and was in the top 10% for the agility run and standing vertical jump at the 2003 National Draft camp. From Whitford FC.
Round 3 47 Sydney ANDREW ERICKSEN SANDRINGHAM DRAGONS 17/07/1985 205.2 89.2 Tall, outside ruckman – athletic type who also played top level basketball at junior level. AIS/AFL Academy in 2002 and Vic Metro representative in 2003. Was the tallest player at the 2003 National Draft camp and had the best max standing jump height.
Round 3 48 Collingwood HEATH SHAW NORTHERN KNIGHTS 27/11/1985
Round 3 49 Brisbane Lions THOMAS LOGAN WARATAH 2/07/1985 183.2 72.9 Medium, inside forward/midfielder who has great endurance. Natural leader with a tremendous work ethic. All-Australian u18 in 2003 playing for NT. Recorded the best 3km time trial run at the 2003 National Draft camp and was also in the top 10% for agility, shuttle run and running vertical jump (right).
Round 4 50 Western Bulldogs ISZAC THOMPSON WOODVILLE WEST TORRENS 24/01/1986 184 72 Medium midfielder with excellent pace. Penetrating kick who marks well above his head. Excellent at State Screening in Adelaide with his speed and agility. Missed SA U18 State team due to illness this year, but impressive member of AIS AFL Academy vs Ireland in April 2003.
Round 4 51 Hawthorn MATTHEW BALL HAWTHORN ROOKIE 21/02/1982
Round 4 52 Melbourne PASS PASS
Round 4 53 Richmond DANIEL JACKSON OAKLEIGH CHARGERS 24/04/1986 185.6 87 Medium forward who is a very athletic player. From Carey Grammer – only played 7 TAC Cup games this year.
Round 4 54 Geelong PASS PASS
Round 4 55 St Kilda SAMUEL FISHER WEST ADELAIDE 10/07/1982 193 80 Tall forward with senior experience this year.
Round 4 56 Kangaroos BRENT LE CRAS WEST PERTH (WAFL) 12/10/1981
Round 4 57 Carlton RICKY MOTT FREMANTLE ROOKIE 21/04/1981
Round 4 58 Adelaide BENJAMIN HUDSON WERRIBEE 24/02/1979
Round 4 59 Sydney MATTHEW DAVIS NORTH ADELAIDE 23/06/1986
Round 4 60 Collingwood JULIAN ROWE OAKLEIGH CHARGERS 25/05/1985 187 72.5 Medium, outside midfielder who finds space well. Kicks the ball accurately on both sides and is a clean ball handler. Athletic type who is strong overhead. Vic Metro u18 representative in 2003. From Carey Old Boys F.C.
Round 4 61 Brisbane Lions MICHAEL RISCHITELLI WESTERN JETS 8/01/1986 181 70 Lightly built wingman who is good over-reach and strong at the ball.
Round 5 62 Western Bulldogs PASS PASS
Round 5 63 Carlton GLEN BOWYER HAWTHORN 28/12/1979
Round 5 64 Richmond SHANE MORRISON BRISBANE LIONS 10/01/1981
Round 5 65 St Kilda CRAIG CALLAGHAN ST KILDA 9/03/1976
Round 5 66 Kangaroos PASS PASS
Round 5 67 Adelaide PASS PASS
Round 5 68 Brisbane Lions PASS PASS
Round 6 69 Carlton JORDON BANNISTER Essendon* 31/10/1982
Round 6 70 Richmond BRENT HARTIGAN CALDER CANNONS 7/04/1985 177 68 Small defender/midfielder who won best & fairest in Premiership year. Smart reader of the play.
Round 6 71 St Kilda PASS PASS
Round 7 72 Carlton ADRIAN DELUCA PORT MELBOURNE 15/05/1982
Round 7 73 Richmond SHANE TUCK WEST ADELAIDE 24/12/1981
Round 7 74 St Kilda PASS PASS
Round 8 75 Carlton STEPHEN KENNA BOX HILL HAWKS 8/10/1981
Round 8 76 Richmond ANDREW RAINES SOUTHPORT 8/03/1986
Round 8 77 St Kilda PASS PASS
Round 9 78 Carlton PASS PASS
Round 9 79 Richmond SIMON FLETCHER CARLTON 17/08/1978
Round 10 80 Carlton PASS PASS
Round 10 81 Richmond KYLE ARCHIBALD BELCONNEN 23/02/1986 190 86 Tall inside forward with a tremendous work ethic. Always presents himself aggressively to down field team mates. Good leap. AIS/AFL Academy in 2003. Had 13 disposals and kicked 2 goals in game three of the 2003 National AFL u18 Championships.
Round 11 82 Richmond PASS PASS
Round 12 83 Richmond PASS PASS

That's right Buzzaaaah.

We traded pick 35 to Colingwood and they wasted it on Brent Hall. Others to go between 35 and 51 were:

Still listed - Sansbury, Zac Dawson, Matthew Spencer, Ricky Dyson, Buchanan, Pettigrew
Sank without trade: Hall, Forster-Knight, Ericksen, Logan, Iszac Thompson

50% of players between our original 3rd and 4th picks were duds, and only a couple of the others are comparable at all with Scotland. That was one hell of a trade, that one.

Then there's Ben Hudson. Well done to Adelaide for picking him up. But remember that he was a 24 year old VFL player at the time, and didn't interest any of the other teams in 2003 or the many drafts before. Remember that we also took punts on Mott (we drafted him at 57 - it wasn't a trade - and Adelaide went for Hudson at pick 58. So both clubs went for older ruckmen. BV's complaint is not that we went for someone "recycled" - it is that we didn't go for the right one.

We also went for Deluca at pick 72 in the draft. Again, the complaint is not that he was an older ruckman in the VFL but that we went for the wrong one.

Of course Davey was a miss for every one of the 16 clubs during the 2003 draft and the earlier ones. Hindsight's a wonderful thing. But we went for Kenna who was also a pacy goalsneak. He was a 22 year old VFL player who was well regarded at the Box Hill Hawks. But Aaron Davey was also only a VFL player at that stage and at 20 had been repeatedly passed over. He wasn't a trade - he was picked up at no. 75. So, it wasn't that we went for a lowly VFL player - we went for the wrong one in retrospect.

We could have used our pick no. 75 on Raines, because the Tigers didn't take him until pick 76. So it wasn't that we'd traded away our picks and therefore robbed ourselves of the chance to take Raines. It was that we didn't rate him.

All that gets back to the quality and resources of the recruiting department. Since greater resources have been deboted to this are, we should be able to pick out blokes like Raines and Hudson. But as it was, we were required to pull those picks out of our ar$e.

This very highly regarded player was a Father Son selection; and wasn't available elsewhere.

Geelong regard him as future superstar material.

In the end in 2003 we got Walker, Scotland and don't forget we got Nick Stevens as well in the PSD (not that we knew that at trade time). That's not a bad lot of gains for a penalty year, especially on top of Simmo and Fisher the previous year . In the end we would've been better of, in hindsight of course (wonder ful thing isn't it), drafting normally given, what was still there it seems. Simmo and Fisher showed what can be there some gems lower in the order. That's why it's far more important to spend money on recruiting and recruiting staff to help find these gems further down the list rather than worrying about priority picks. We'd be much better off in the long run.

Maybe a time machine for transportation from the 1990's to 2007 modern footy.